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No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

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Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#301

Post by DanBC »

codingdave wrote: post #183
DanBC wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. There isn't a single US state where corporal punishment by parents is illegal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_in_the_hom... > Corporal punishment of children by parents or other legal guardians is legal in the United States and social acceptance is generally high, through allowances made for "moderate physical discipline" (using this or similar language) in most states' laws regarding assault,…

Delaware. http://statelaws.findlaw.com/delaware-law/delaware-corporal-...

Thank you! It's too late to edit my comment.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#302

Post by snowwrestler »

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

There are 3 additional ideas that are important, but I didn't see you mention in your comment.

1) You praise the heck out of the child when they do accept the choice. This is hard because you have to remember to notice NON-drama, which is typically not noteworthy to people. You over-remember when things went bad and under-remember when things went fine. I do too--everyone does. (Politicians exploit the heck out of this BTW.)

2) You don't defer your whole life to arguing with the child. If it's time to go, you go, sweater or not. The key thing is that it's not punishment. It's just Life... or The Schedule. Don't act mad, just calmly firm. If the kid won't wear a sweater, they get cold. Bring the one you prefer as a backup if you want.

3) (Hardest) You model the behavior you want. Play a pick a sweater game when it's NOT time to go and there is no pressure. If they do it right or sort of right, praise the part they did right and do it again.

None of this is easy. FWIW I have a young kid and would grade myself at around 50% or less on these. But it's a model to work toward.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#303

Post by vidarh »

paganel wrote: post #102
SerLava wrote: post #5

> Let’s say you have an adolescent daughter and she says to you, “Mom, you are such a bitch. What have you ever done for me? You only think of yourself.” > The teen may be at the dinner table and just being quiet and not saying negative things. Well, when you're starting out, one of the positive-opposites can sometimes be reinforcing the non-occurrence of the behavior. And you just say, “Marion, it's nice having dinn…

> Let’s say you have an adolescent daughter and she says to you, “Mom, you are such a bitch. What have you ever done for me? You only think of yourself.” Maybe it's because I grew up as a kid in another culture (Eastern Europe) and some time ago (I'm 36 now) but do kids nowadays really call their parents "bitch"? My parents almost never laid their hands on me (the couple of times they actually did I had deserved it)…

Kids will call their parents the worst things they think will get a reaction without getting them in too much trouble.

My son would never go that far - he dislikes "bad words" to the extent that it frustrates us because he'll tell us off for relatively innocent things, and insist on at most spelling out words he consider bad....

But he'll still on occasion try to say something he knows is hurtful when he is angry and want to get a reaction.

So if it sound crazy that someone would call their parents "bitch", it generally just reflects what they've gotten away with before and gotten the right reaction from.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#304

Post by snowwrestler »

maxxxxx wrote: post #158
tw04 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why that would humble her. If she trained dogs, then she already knew 99% of the dogs out there with behavioral issues are a direct result of the owner. There are VERY rare circumstances where it's just a genetic defect (for lack of better term) in the dog, and it just has insurmountable issues. After fostering/owning roughly 75 dogs in my life, I can say 9 times out of 10 that consistency and discipline…

It humbled her because in the past she would have blamed the dog's behavior on the owner and she would have known exactly how to fix it. Now she has a dog that doesn't respond to her methods.

The more likely explanation is that she is not properly applying her own methods, because it's harder to evaluate something that one is personally experiencing, as opposed to something happening to another person. The article even talks about this.

This is not unique to kids and pets. It is why even experienced athletes have coaches, for example.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#305

Post by drieddust »

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

> My 4 year will always ask for a 3rd option that isn't there, or just reject the framing entirely.

Exactly my situation. My 2 year old just keep on it until she feels otherwise. Though one thing I have seen to work is to employ her into something adult like allow her to stir the liquid while making scrambled eggs :)

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#306

Post by qb45 »

devoply wrote: post #296
RangerScience wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://users.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/fish.html : One day Chuang Tzu and a friend were walking by a river. "Look at the fish swimming about," said Chuang Tzu, "They are really enjoying themselves." "You are not a fish," replied the friend, "So you can't truly know that they are enjoying themselves." "You are not me," said Chuang Tzu. "So how do you know that I do not know that the fish are enjoying themselves?" ---…

Psychologists do study personality. But despite that I still think as human beings our theories of mind are based on our own understanding of our mind. Those neurons that fire in our brain emulate the behavior in our brain. So the advice that any psychologist gives is based on that. But I am not a fish, so I don't know how it is like to be a fish, a psychologist in this case. I have just received bad advice before fr…

> I have just received bad advice before from a psychologist

Exactly. It doesn't take much Zen magic to figure out when someone is useless to you. (OK, maybe sometimes it does, but nevertheless it doesn't.)

Plus it's doubly off-putting when they are being useless while feeling good about themselves because they think they are helping. I have a gut feeling that some psychologists are driven by their own insecurity about being useful.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#307

Post by Elvie »

It's not about punishing, it should be about discipline - discipline comes from teaching - we should be teaching our children in every situation and not punishing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_discipline "The word discipline is defined as imparting knowledge and skill, in other words, to teach"

I have a nearly 5yo and a nearly 2yo and i have to admit it has been tough, but we have managed without time outs and punishments and spankings

I grew up afraid of "the slipper" and "the wooden spoon" and don't have a good relationship with my parents and do not want that to my children

we practise time in, instead of time out when you leave the child by themselves and they don't have the maturity to realise what they have done wrong, we remove them from the situation and sit with them and explain what the issue was after they have calmed down - as talking to them mid-tantrum will not have any effect as they won't be able to process anything we say

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#308

Post by DanBC »

Jaruzel wrote: post #282
JonoBB wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a TV programme in the UK called The 3 Day Nanny, about a super nanny who would come in and sort out problem children and parents in 3 days. It ran for a few seasons. Fast forward till she had her own child, and I saw an interview with her. She was completely shattered. Like a wreck. She had her own difficult child, and coupled with little available help from others, she couldn't cope. She looked and sounded…

I looked this up because the only nanny show I know of in the UK was SuperNanny with Jo whats-her-name[1], and I didn't think this was her. It's not: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/family/kathryn-mewes-the-su... Totally unaware of this woman, and her show. -- [1] Edit: It's Jo Frost.

The best show was "House of Tiny Tearaways", with Dr Tanya Byron. (She's a paediatric psychologist.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_House_of_Tiny_Tearaways

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#309

Post by snowwrestler »

nkozyra wrote: post #246
marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

> My 4 year will always ask for a 3rd option that isn't there, or just reject the framing entirely. Because children of that age (and younger) have two traits that will always trump logic: 1. Defiance (better described as a need to understand independence) and 2. A lack of long-term thinking When a child - who wishes to experience control - wants a cookie, a choice between a banana and an apple is untenable. Be wary…

What's more likely--that you understand children better than people who spend their entire lives working on that, or that you have misunderstood the advice the article gave?

The point of the article is not that offering a binary choice is a panacea. The point is that you have to model the behavior you want, and reinforce it with praise. Just saying "no cookie" does not give the kid a positive action they can take. Offering a choice of what they can have gives them something to do. And the few times they do it, you have to be ready to make a big deal about how great that was.

Of course a kid who wants a cookie is going to be diappointed if you offer a banana or an apple. No one can change that. What you can train the kid to do is better manage disappointment. As they learn to do that--through positive reinforcement--the drama goes down. That's what the article is about.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#310

Post by B1FF_PSUVM »

sangnoir wrote: post #192
hourislate wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humor is discouraged on this site.

I think it is a brilliant, if unintended meta-comentary on US politics: for most elections, the public is offered the choice "Democrat or Republican".

Thank you, it was very much intended.

(Locke prattled about consent of the governed, and this little bit of child psychology brilliantly shows how easy it is to achieve in practice.)

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