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No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

theatlantic.com

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Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#281

Post by hubert123 »

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

> And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important

i dont understand how this isnt immediately a red flag for dystopian orwellian oppression. I guess u can do it to kids, they cant defend themselves.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#282

Post by Jaruzel »

JonoBB wrote: post #146
marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

There was a TV programme in the UK called The 3 Day Nanny, about a super nanny who would come in and sort out problem children and parents in 3 days. It ran for a few seasons. Fast forward till she had her own child, and I saw an interview with her. She was completely shattered. Like a wreck. She had her own difficult child, and coupled with little available help from others, she couldn't cope. She looked and sounded…

I looked this up because the only nanny show I know of in the UK was SuperNanny with Jo whats-her-name[1], and I didn't think this was her. It's not:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/family/kathryn-mewes-the-su...

Totally unaware of this woman, and her show.

--

[1] Edit: It's Jo Frost.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#283

Post by nhebb »

bluejekyll wrote: post #267
nhebb wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, after having three kids with widely different temperaments, I can only offer two pieces of advice to other dads: - You're going to have to change diapers anyway, so you might as well get good at it. I was a one-man Formula 1 pit crew of diaper changing. AMA. - Invest in a vasectomy.

Wait. After three kids your advice only covers the first 2-3 years?! Since I basically followed both of those pieces already, am I good?

> After three kids your advice only covers the first 2-3 years?!

Yep. Good luck.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#284

Post by Jaruzel »

anonbanker wrote: post #194
JonoBB wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a TV programme in the UK called The 3 Day Nanny, about a super nanny who would come in and sort out problem children and parents in 3 days. It ran for a few seasons. Fast forward till she had her own child, and I saw an interview with her. She was completely shattered. Like a wreck. She had her own difficult child, and coupled with little available help from others, she couldn't cope. She looked and sounded…

Is there a link for this? I would love to satiate my need for schadenfreude.

See my link posted to the parent [post].

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#285

Post by GuiA »

coldtea wrote: post #279
GuiA wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can, if you have "fuck you money", which Musk has 10000 times over. You can have "fuck you money", but you can't have "fuck you time". Sure, the capitalist HN crowd will argue that money can buy you time (e.g. by having people do your chores for you, etc) but ultimately there is a finite amount of bedtime moments, meals, Sunday mornings, etc in your kid's lives. Try as you might, fuck you money won't change tha…

> but ultimately there is a finite amount of bedtime moments, meals, Sunday mornings, etc in your kid's lives. Try as you might, fuck you money won't change that. I think you've misunderstood the concept of fuck you money, at least as it relates to time. They don't buy you more time -- they buy you the luxury to be you that decides what you do with your finite time. And bonding with your children is entirely up to yo…

> money buys you the luxury to be you that decides what you do with your finite time

This is an illusion. Ultimately, you have to choose what is a priority in your life. There will be moments, many of them, where you have to choose between a board meeting or making it to bedtime, or taking a business trip across the world or a weekend spent hiking with your kids.

If you choose too many of the latter, at some point your board will get sick of you, your executives will stop trusting you, etc.

If you're prioritizing the things that let you be the CEO of a company, you're necessarily deprioritizing the things that let you spend the most time with your kids.

The problem with "fuck you money" is that it also easily lets you fuck yourself.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#286

Post by RangerScience »

devoply wrote: post #133
maxxxxx wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem with one-size-fits-all methods. Kids are just different and what worked for one child doesn't necessarily work for another child. Even if you do exactly the same thing. My girlfriend used to train dogs for a living. She always said "it's the owner's fault, not the dog's". Now we have a Chihuahua who won't listen, doesn't respond to rewards, doesn't respond to punishment. She just does her own thing…

I think the problem is with the entire field of psychology they don't take people's personality into account. And I think it takes lot and lots of practice to even start getting at that because you have one personality as a psychologist and your entire theory of mind is based on your own perceptions of what you would do were you in the other's person's shoes. It takes a lot of experience to get over that level of und…

http://users.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/fish.html :

One day Chuang Tzu and a friend were walking by a river. "Look at the fish swimming about," said Chuang Tzu, "They are really enjoying themselves."

"You are not a fish," replied the friend, "So you can't truly know that they are enjoying themselves."

"You are not me," said Chuang Tzu. "So how do you know that I do not know that the fish are enjoying themselves?"

---

Do you know that they don't because you know the training that psychologists get, or because _you_ don't and you haven't had that training?

Similarly, do you know that the models are bad because you've studied how they don't fit people, or do you think that those models don't fit you?

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#287

Post by [deleted] »

devoply wrote: post #133
maxxxxx wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem with one-size-fits-all methods. Kids are just different and what worked for one child doesn't necessarily work for another child. Even if you do exactly the same thing. My girlfriend used to train dogs for a living. She always said "it's the owner's fault, not the dog's". Now we have a Chihuahua who won't listen, doesn't respond to rewards, doesn't respond to punishment. She just does her own thing…

I think the problem is with the entire field of psychology they don't take people's personality into account. And I think it takes lot and lots of practice to even start getting at that because you have one personality as a psychologist and your entire theory of mind is based on your own perceptions of what you would do were you in the other's person's shoes. It takes a lot of experience to get over that level of und…

[deleted]

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#288

Post by marklgr »

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

> Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier

To be frank, the article tips are pretty sound and well-accepted, including from specialists who deal with much more difficult children then you and me on a daily basis.

First point, there's a tendency to see one's kids as special, be it especially gifted, or difficult, or an astonishing critical thinker for their age. It's quite understandable, since we have an infinitely deeper relationship with them than with any other kid. Secondly, it's much more difficult to deal with relationship issues when you are involved in them; that explains why you can often clearly see what's wrong in others' relationships (parent/kids or S.O.), but yours always seem more complicated by several order of magnitude. And thirdly, we can also find it quite irritating to be given some basic tips when we are experiencing hell and we feel like we are so past that kind of "pop psych". It's like, "Do you think we've not tried that already?".

Of course, a few tips are no magic bullet (sorry for the cliché), and sometimes the problems are just too serious, but on the whole they just deliver, to the surprise of many parents when they see it used successfully by specialists. I'm not one of them but I know a few, and I personnally use the "give them a choice" tip and if done correctly, I have found it to work very, very well--for parenting and in life in general.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#289

Post by vidarh »

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

If you allow your kid to get away with the 3rd option, then your kid now knows that your choices aren't genuine. None of these kind of methods work if you let them know that when you say there are two alternatives there really are three.

And I've seen this work often enough when we've had friends of my son come over that we often see act up around their parents, but that will try that shit once with us and then follow our sons cue once they see that all they achieve is getting ignored, that I tend to think that whether this works or not is more often down to follow-through.

That doesn't mean it's a one size fits all solution. You do need to adapt what kind of options you present, and how you respond if they try to push the boundaries - kids are not stupid; if you keep offering "options" when they know there are other alternatives that are on the table if they say the right things, then they'll try to challenge you for it.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#290

Post by im3w1l »

tent wrote: post #74
SiVal wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Punishment might make you feel better, but it won’t change the kid’s behavior. This claim (from the article) is nonsense. I've changed the behavior of my kids countless times with punishment. I realize that the attitude I am supposed to take is that when someone with Ivy League credentials espouses a currently fashionable theory that my own observations contradict, I am supposed to believe the theory and not my own l…

I think the idea isn't so much that punishment doesn't get results, but rather that those results come with side effects. Usually, this is some harboured anger, or avoidance of the parent. Yes, punishment gets changes behavior, but it's not always a 100% positive change. It should have been phrased better in the article.

You're projecting your own reasonable beliefs onto the article. It really was as stupid as SiVal said.

It follows the rules of political correctness: Any evidence supporting a taboo idea must the denied. Any advantages of a taboo practice must be denied.

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