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No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

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Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#291

Post by andrei_says_ »

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

This is not a real choice but a simple manipulation aiming to provide the illusion of choice.

The purpose of parenting is not to control the children but to support them in learning themselves and the world.

Human beings are intelligent and wired for success. It doesn't take long before we start realizing the difference between choices that don't matter to us and ones that do.

If you're looking for parenting practices that support self knowledge in a collaborative and respectful environment, I recommend "Raising Our chikdren, Raising Ourselves" by Naomi Alford.

Offering fake choices does not respect the intelligence nor dignity of human beings.

And, we need to acknowledge that manipulation is probably a better approach than psychological abuse (time outs) and threats to a child's physical safety (spanking).

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#292

Post by grzm »

im3w1l wrote: post #290
tent wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea isn't so much that punishment doesn't get results, but rather that those results come with side effects. Usually, this is some harboured anger, or avoidance of the parent. Yes, punishment gets changes behavior, but it's not always a 100% positive change. It should have been phrased better in the article.

You're projecting your own reasonable beliefs onto the article. It really was as stupid as SiVal said. It follows the rules of political correctness: Any evidence supporting a taboo idea must the denied. Any advantages of a taboo practice must be denied.

Calling out something for "political correctness" (or any one of another dozen or so convenient shorthands for political footballs) is a lazy argument. I'm sure there are things you disagree with in the article. What are they? Why? Do you have something more to add to the point SiVal made? Personal experience? References to research? Add something constructive to the discussion.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#293

Post by tlarkworthy »

Waterluvian wrote: post #226
maxxxxx wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem with one-size-fits-all methods. Kids are just different and what worked for one child doesn't necessarily work for another child. Even if you do exactly the same thing. My girlfriend used to train dogs for a living. She always said "it's the owner's fault, not the dog's". Now we have a Chihuahua who won't listen, doesn't respond to rewards, doesn't respond to punishment. She just does her own thing…

I think some breeds are just kind of fundamentally flawed. Were chihuahuas bred to be obedient or were they bred to be toys and possibly food?

Chihuahua are an old breed and I don't think we know their true history. Old breeds tend to be healthier and more compatible with humans though, as we have worked all the bugs out.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#294

Post by Traubenfuchs »

llimllib wrote: post #175
prawn wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also a very effective technique when brushing a toddler's teeth. "Top or bottom teeth first?" My other tactics for routines are "Which animal should we brush teeth like tonight?", "OK, we're going to brush your ears. Teeth!? No. No, maybe your eyebrows. OK, teeth then." and "Close your eyes and I'll choose your clothes and get you dressed so it will be a surprise."

With my son, "time for a bath!", no matter how excited, yields crying. "Would you rather watch trains or buses after your bath?" yields an excited choice. (As with all parenting advice: usually.)

How about bubble baths?

I always loved bubble baths.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#295

Post by snovv_crash »

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

The best advice I've seen is to give them limited responsibility, and then let them deal with the limited consequences. Your job as a parent is to short term care for your children, but long term make them independent and functional in society.

If you never let them wear their shorts and tshirt in the snow when they really want to, they will never respect the cold or your advice.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#296

Post by devoply »

RangerScience wrote: post #286
devoply wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem is with the entire field of psychology they don't take people's personality into account. And I think it takes lot and lots of practice to even start getting at that because you have one personality as a psychologist and your entire theory of mind is based on your own perceptions of what you would do were you in the other's person's shoes. It takes a lot of experience to get over that level of und…

http://users.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/fish.html : One day Chuang Tzu and a friend were walking by a river. "Look at the fish swimming about," said Chuang Tzu, "They are really enjoying themselves." "You are not a fish," replied the friend, "So you can't truly know that they are enjoying themselves." "You are not me," said Chuang Tzu. "So how do you know that I do not know that the fish are enjoying themselves?" ---…

Psychologists do study personality. But despite that I still think as human beings our theories of mind are based on our own understanding of our mind. Those neurons that fire in our brain emulate the behavior in our brain. So the advice that any psychologist gives is based on that. But I am not a fish, so I don't know how it is like to be a fish, a psychologist in this case.

I have just received bad advice before from a psychologist and looking back on it was because they don't know me and could not have known me in the few hours I spent with them. In order to know me they would have to go through a lot of people, and very few people are like me in personality terms. So to know me they would have to go through many many people before they had enough experience with people with my sort of psychology or temperament... to give me any sort of advice that would work with my temperament and actually add value to my life.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#297

Post by vidarh »

Afton wrote: post #186
analog31 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they are parents, but they're not me. I've got two kids, both teenagers now. In my view it's not just that kids are different, but that parents are different too. My impression is that most parenting advice assumes that the parents themselves have unlimited self discipline, organization, and emotional stamina.

and unlimited time. So much advice of the form: "Really sit down with the child during a tantrum. Listen to their concerns, and make sure they feel heard. Only then engage with them in problem solving.". Uh. Sure. I'll just do that. I mean, dinner is going to burn, we'll be late for swimming, and I was on my way to wipe my other child's butt before helping my _other_ other child with their homework. I can only assume…

I don't have a nanny or a housekeeper. My solution to that have been: Sometimes let dinner get ruined, and include a discussion of consequences. Sometimes allow yourself to be late, and do the same. Sometimes tell them they have to wait and ignore them - yes I know its hard - while helping your other kids.

A ruined dinner or getting late to swimming are one time events. Teaching your kids that tantrums will "work" in all the wrong ways will affect your life for a long time.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#298

Post by tux1968 »

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

People don't acknowledge this enough, one size doesn't fit all.

It bothers me most when people discuss diet and obesity. "Just don't eat so much!" is often given as slightly condescending advice. Such advice reflects a personal experience where your body isn't screaming in hunger 24 hours a day. Different people have different metabolisms too, turning food into energy to be spent, or locking it away instantly as fat -- makes a huge difference. Calories-In-Calories-Out is a rather limited view of the situation.

Our internal experiences differ, it affects who we are and how we behave. We all have to be responsible and deal with our personal realities in an adult manner. But it's rather lame to assume that anyone who is challenged by things you find simple is either stupid or lacking in willpower.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#299

Post by vidarh »

GuiA wrote: post #285
coldtea wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but ultimately there is a finite amount of bedtime moments, meals, Sunday mornings, etc in your kid's lives. Try as you might, fuck you money won't change that. I think you've misunderstood the concept of fuck you money, at least as it relates to time. They don't buy you more time -- they buy you the luxury to be you that decides what you do with your finite time. And bonding with your children is entirely up to yo…

> money buys you the luxury to be you that decides what you do with your finite time This is an illusion. Ultimately, you have to choose what is a priority in your life. There will be moments, many of them, where you have to choose between a board meeting or making it to bedtime, or taking a business trip across the world or a weekend spent hiking with your kids. If you choose too many of the latter, at some point yo…

The point of having "fuck you money" is that you have money enough that if your kids are more important to you than your company, you can tell your board to fuck off and hire someone else to run the company.

You don't have "fuck you money" if you are still dependent on being CEO to maintain the lifestyle you want. You have fuck you money when whether or not you work is down to what you want rather than what you need.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#300

Post by [deleted] »

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

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