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This AI Boom Will Also Bust

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Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#141
I understand that most people working with deep learning wouldn't want this type of thinking to spread amongst the public, and I surely don't want it either. But you have to be totally unaware of reality to think that DL is the definitive tool for AI. Most impressive results in DL in the past 2 years happended like this:

>deepmind steals people from the top ML research teams in univerisites around the world

>these people are given an incredible amount of money to solve an incredibly complex task

>a 6000 layers deep network is run for 6 months on a GPU cluster the size of Texas

>Google drops in their marketing team

>media says Google solved the AI problem

>repeat every 6 months to keep the company hot and keep the people flow constant

>get accepted at every conference on earth because you're deepmind (seriously, have you seen the crap that they get to present at NIPS and ICML? The ddqn paper is literally a single line modification to another paper's algorithm, while we plebeians have to struggle like hell to get the originality points)

I'll be impressed when they solve Pacman on a Raspberry Pi, otherwise they are simply grownups playing with very expensive toys.

Deep learning is cool, I truly believe that, and I love working with neural networks, but anyone with a base knowledge of ML knows better than to praise it as the saviour of AI research.

Rant over, I'm gonna go check how my autoencoder is learning now ;)

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#142
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this just shifting the ambiguity into your choice of state definitions, rather than the states themselves?

But there should be no ambiguity, with enough data. Maybe that means there will always be ambiguity, but maybe it doesn't, especially not with man-made things and complex natural objects, and also if you can contextualize the data over time and 'geographically', there is more 'signal' there to differentiate

> But there should be no ambiguity, with enough data.

What? I'm sorry but this runs counter to everything in my experience, both professionally, and just casual very day experience.

More data, helps to a point, but then there's diminishing returns, and it certainly doesn't eliminate the ambiguity. On the contrary, you discover diversity, and you still have a misclassification and perhaps even a harder data cleaning problem, because now you're seeing cases that aren't actually clear cut. Even if you're only talking about adding more features, well again, that works up to a point, but then you hit sparsity issues.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#143
Robotics and automation have been improving for a long time, and especially recently. Look at the rise in consumer drones, enabled by improvements in batteries, sensors, and computers.

But the main thing holding them back is a lack of AI. Robots can do a rote action over and over again, but they have a hard time identifying where objects are, planning, and reacting to their environment. Just solving machine vision would be a massive step forward and enable a ton of applications.

And that has sort of already happened. The best nets are already exceeding humans at vision tasks. They are learning to play video games at expert level, which is not conceptually distant from robot control. Its taking time to move this research out of the lab and into real applications, but it is happening.

And so I totally believe that at least 50% of current jobs could be automated in 10 to 15 years. How many people are employed doing relatively simple, repetitive tasks, over and over again? Me and most people I know have jobs like that.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#144

I think this field is suffering from some confusion of terminology. In my mind there are three subfields that are crystallizing that each have different goals and thus different methods. The first one is Data Science. More and more businesses store their data electronically. Data Scientists aim to analyze this data to derive insights from it. Machine Learning is one of the tools in their tool belt, however often they…

Not a bad way to put it. You could make his argument valid though by discussing the economic value of the problems solved by the first category of people vs. the third. Right now I agree with him that the first is bigger than the third. But I believe that balance is starting to tip and the potential value of the third will keep increasing relatively to the first to the point of dwarfing it (hence no bust).

I don't think that there is a "balance" to tip, it's just that the previously theoretical work of the latter group is starting to become practical to the former in a business setting. Neural networks have been a topic of research for many decades before consumer demand for graphical video games drove the technology to make them practical. Backpropagation was first described as a solution to efficiently training multi-layer neural networks in 1975 but only in the last decade have we developed the infrastructure for non-CS researchers to use complex neural networks using a sub-$1000 teraflop GPU and an iPython notebook.

Off the top of my head the closest analogy would be number theory, especially the study of prime numbers. Before information technology in general, number theory was esoteric and considered useless by many pure and applied mathematicians (I'm simplifying a bit for argument's sake) but all of that accumulated research proved massively useful once we started to communicate electronically. WWI and II cryptographers didn't become or absorb number theorists as a group, they just adapted the knowledge to their field under the umbrella of electronic warfare. I think this is happening with data scientists, who are starting to experiment with ML but it's still just another tool in their toolbox. The media hype train focuses on the flashy AI contests and muddles the terminology but the real work [1] is happening behind the scenes in data science.

[1] By "real work" I mean work that directly translates into value on a company balance sheet. The theoretical work is important in and of itself and has been happening for decades.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#145
Pretty much every large firm has multiple problems ML can solve better than linear/logistic regression. Smaller firms may still have one or two. In some industries the core competency will be how good your ML model is as everything else becomes a commodity. There are new advents that make ML better for small data-sets as well as opportunities for data-brokerage to increase access to data. And these are just current applications, new applications are still nascent (i.e self driving cars). Treating ML as a software problem instead of a science project - with a pipeline of adding/creating data, cleaning, modeling, analyzing, learning, and iterating is also incredibly important but it's not like most companies are doing this particularly well either.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#146

This article is tries to be right about something big, by arguing about things that are small and that do not necessarily prove the thesis. Notice now you can cogently disagree with the main idea while agreeing with most of the sub points (paraphrasing below): 1) Most impactful point: The economic impact innovations in AI/machine learning will have over the next ~2 decades are being overestimated. DISAGREE 2) Subpoin…

another point is that Linear Regression IS Machine/statistical Learning. Sure its been around for more than 100 years before computation, but regression algorithms are learning algorithms.

Arguing for more linear regression to solve a firms problems, is equivalent to arguing for machine learning. Now, if instead he wanted to argue that the vast majority of a businesses prediction problems can be solved by simple algorithms, that is most likely true. but economic impact of this is still a part of the economic impact of machine learning.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a false dichotomy. Both OLS regression and, say, random decision forest regression have the same objective (predict values) and achieve it with similar means (build a generative model / function). They solve the same problem. Contrastingly, assembler and python are broadly aimed at completely different use cases. Broadly, whether you should move from OLS to random forest regression = SNR increase / increase i…

It is actually much easier to apply a random forest (or really gradient boosted decision tree, which almost strictly dominates random forests) than a linear regression. Decision tree methods require far less data preprocessing than linear regression, because the model is able to infer feature relationships. Obviously if your features are linearly related to your target than linear regression is much more viable.

This is absolutely true, the one caveat is that you can explain the significance of features and the relationship to the response variables in simpler terms.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#148
After a good look behind the curtain of Deep Learning, I've come to agree with Robin. No, Deep Learning will not fail. But it will fail to live up to its promise to revolutionize AI, and it won't replace statistics or GOFAI in many tasks that require intelligence.

Yes, DL has proven itself to perform (most?) gradient-based tasks better than any other algorithm. It maximizes the value in large data, minimizing error brilliantly. But ask it to address a single feature not present in the zillion images in ImageNet, and it's lost. (E.g. Where is the person in the image looking? To the left? The right? No DN using labels from ImageNet could say.) This is classic AI brittleness.

With all the hoolpa surrounding DL's successes at single task challenges (mostly on images), we've failed to notice that nothing has really changed in AI. The info available from raw data remains as thin as ever. I think soon we'll all see that even ginormous quantities of thinly labeled supervised data can take your AI agent only so far -- a truly useful AI agent will need info that isn't present in all the labeled images on the planet. In the end the agent still needs a rich internal model of the world that it can further enrich with curated data (teaching) to master each new task or transfer the skill to a related domain. And to do that, it needs the ability to infer cause and effect, and explore possible worlds. Without that, any big-data-trained AI will always remain a one trick pony.

Alas, Deep Learning (alone) can't fill that void. The relevant information and inferential capability needed to apply it to solve new problems and variations on them -- these skills just aren't present in the nets or the big data available to train them to high levels of broad competence. To create a mind capable of performing multiple diverse tasks, like the kinds a robot needs in order to repair a broken toaster, I think we'll all soon realize that DL has not replaced GOFAI at all. A truly useful intelligent agent still must learn hierarchies of concepts and use logic, if it's to do more than play board games.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#149
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also suffering from hype. And the criticism you note isn't one-directional in the field at large. I'm finding that ML/AI researchers deriding ML/Data engineers and "scientists" as not doing "real" ML or AI is becoming a thing, similar to how some computer scientists deride engineering as not doing real computing.

It is not suffering from hype. There is too little hype. People are vastly underestimating what is about to happen. See my comments here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13079598 under our recent article " Artificial Intelligence Generates Christmas Song". Basically, if there is no pixie dust that makes humans intelligent, and instead it is a matter of the architecture of the brain and the first few years of sup…

I didn't downvote you, but the TL;DR of the article is that most ML demonstrations to date have been toys and there are no known real-world applications that would justify the "40% of jobs lost!" hype.

And you're trying to rebut this by referencing an AI-generated Christmas jingle. I think the author rests their case...

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#150
post #141

I understand that most people working with deep learning wouldn't want this type of thinking to spread amongst the public, and I surely don't want it either. But you have to be totally unaware of reality to think that DL is the definitive tool for AI. Most impressive results in DL in the past 2 years happended like this: >deepmind steals people from the top ML research teams in univerisites around the world >these pe…

> I'll be impressed when they solve Pacman on a Raspberry Pi, otherwise they are simply grownups playing with very expensive toys.

I'm pretty sure "grownups playing with very expensive toys" accurately characterizes >100,000 software employees in the US right now.

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