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This AI Boom Will Also Bust

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Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#121
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the real world, most things are in a maybe state rather than yes/no. Not to get too far afield, but I disagree with this on a certain philosophical level. All states are yes/no. All states of all things should result in a yes/no and be differentiable, with enough data. This doesn't speak to the practicality of that but as far as I can tell the theoretical potential is huge, almost infinite even.

So we should just use Prolog to accomplish all our programming tasks?

Nah. There is a difference in my mind between creating a 'map' of the natural world, and deciding which actions to perform in that world, and this is all theoretical/philosophical. If one were to do a pure AI type programming language it would have to come from the AI itself, and it would need some reason to create that language and who knows where/what all those rules would be and why (think of human programmers who make new languages).

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#122
post #117
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the core argument against is the same as it was in 1990 (Dreyfus, Heidegger) - basically AI can solve problems in micro-worlds (chess then, Go now; blocks worlds then image annotation now), but it's not clear these micro-worlds can be fused together, unless they are embodied in an entity who lives in the world. The current deep learning & robotics work is exciting and promising, but it's still a long way from…

What if I was that entity?

Fine - let's go for a walk together, build a fire, cook and chat and see what we have in common - It would be interesting. This is why TV and film like Humans and Bladerunner and I, Robot and Arrival and books like Ancillary Justice are fun - how much would we understand each other? how would it be different from interacting with a human?

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#123
[Disclosure: I work for a deep-learning company.]

Robin's post reveals a couple fundamental misunderstandings. While he may be correct that, for now, many small firms should apply linear regression rather than deep learning to their limited datasets, he is wrong in his prediction of an AI bust. If it happens, it will not be for the reasons he cites.

He is skeptical that deep learning and other forms of advanced AI 1) will be applicable to smaller and smaller datasets, and that 2) they will become easier to use.

And yet some great research is being done that will prove him wrong on his first point.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1605.06065 https://arxiv.org/abs/1606.04080

One-shot learning, or learning from a few examples, is a field where we're making rapid progress, which means that in the near future, we'll obtain much higher accuracy on smaller datasets. So the immense performance gains we've seen by applying deep learning to big data will someday extend to smaller data as well.

Secondly, Robin is skeptical that deep learning will be a tool most firms can adopt, given the lack of specialists. For now, that talent is scarce and salaries are high. But this is a problem that job markets know how to fix. The data science academies popping up in San Francisco exist for a reason: to satisfy that demand.

And to go one step further, the history of technology suggests that we find ways to wrap powerful technology in usable packages for less technical people. AI is going to be just one component that fits into a larger data stack, infusing products invisibly until we don't even think about it.

And fwiw, his phrase "deep machine learning" isn't a thing. Nobody says that, because it's redundant. All deep learning is a subset of machine learning.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#124
post #85
post #11

When I was at Watson this is the first thing I told every customer: before you start with AI are you already doing the more mundane data science on your structured data? If not, you shouldn't go right away for the shiny object. This said I still believe the article is mistaken in its evaluation of potential impact (and its fuzzy metaphore of pipes). Unstructured or semi-structured or dirty data is much more prevalent…

So the basic criticism here is than Hanson, in suggesting firms clean up their data and then apply simple analytics to it, is defining away the problem that ML solves?

Hanson is economist, not a computer scientist. He may not be right about exactly why the hype is unfounded. But he is not wrong about the fact that it is unfounded. There is no "awe-inspiring" rate of success with these projects, no massive revenue streams that are boiling up all over the landscape, which is absolutely what would have to be happening already to possibly justify predictions of "47% of US jobs in 20 years".

The giant piles of dirty data are that way because for thirty years no one has considered them worth cleaning up. How will they create such astounding amounts of unexpected value?

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#125
post #122
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if I was that entity?

Fine - let's go for a walk together, build a fire, cook and chat and see what we have in common - It would be interesting. This is why TV and film like Humans and Bladerunner and I, Robot and Arrival and books like Ancillary Justice are fun - how much would we understand each other? how would it be different from interacting with a human?

I am a human. I think it's ridiculous to think I was a special entity so I won't. But I think we reached the point where humans became machines, and machines became humans. The first one to achieve superintelligence would guide the world. I think humans won the debate versus AIs on Twitter. A human effectively debated Big Brother and won.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#126
post #123

[Disclosure: I work for a deep-learning company.] Robin's post reveals a couple fundamental misunderstandings. While he may be correct that, for now, many small firms should apply linear regression rather than deep learning to their limited datasets, he is wrong in his prediction of an AI bust. If it happens, it will not be for the reasons he cites. He is skeptical that deep learning and other forms of advanced AI 1)…

This is somewhat tangental, but what do you think about Ladder Networks?

(https://arxiv.org/abs/1507.02672, https://arxiv.org/abs/1511.06430)

I was really impressed by their results, but I haven't seen it being applied successfully to other applications.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#127
This article is tries to be right about something big, by arguing about things that are small and that do not necessarily prove the thesis.

Notice now you can cogently disagree with the main idea while agreeing with most of the sub points (paraphrasing below):

1) Most impactful point: The economic impact innovations in AI/machine learning will have over the next ~2 decades are being overestimated.

DISAGREE

2) Subpoint : Overhyped (fashion-induced) tech causes companies to waste time and money.

AGREE (well, yes, but does anyone not know this?)

3) Subpoint: Most firms that want AI/ML really just need linear regression on cleaned-up data.

PROBABLY (but this doesn't prove or even support (1))

4) Subpoint: Obstacles limit applications (though incompetence)

AGREE (but it's irrelevant to (1), and also a pretty old conjecture.)

5) Subpoint: It's not true that 47 percent of total US employment is at risk .. to computerisation .. perhaps over the next decade or two.

PROBABLY (that this number/timeframe is optimistic means very little. one decade after the Internet many people said it hadn't upended industry as predicted. whether it took 10, 20, or 30 years, the important fact is that the revolution happened.)

It would be interesting to know if those who are agree in the comments agree with the sensational headline or point 1, or the more obvious and less consequential points 2-5.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#128

I think this field is suffering from some confusion of terminology. In my mind there are three subfields that are crystallizing that each have different goals and thus different methods. The first one is Data Science. More and more businesses store their data electronically. Data Scientists aim to analyze this data to derive insights from it. Machine Learning is one of the tools in their tool belt, however often they…

Not a bad way to put it. You could make his argument valid though by discussing the economic value of the problems solved by the first category of people vs. the third. Right now I agree with him that the first is bigger than the third. But I believe that balance is starting to tip and the potential value of the third will keep increasing relatively to the first to the point of dwarfing it (hence no bust).

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#129

I've read every comment in this thread and its filled mostly with peoples self congratulatory intellectual views. Nobody, not even Robin Hansen himself has given a good, detailed argument as to why the current progress in Machine learning will stop.

It's because that's just how things always work.

Have you ever played one of those strategy games with a tech tree? Research A and it lets you research B, C, and D; research C and D and it lets you research E; etc?

That's based on the way discoveries in the real world build on eachother. And in the real world, the research tree seems to be "lumpy".

Think "agricultural revolution", "industrial revolution", etc. Something new comes available, and everyone rushes to pick off all the new low-hanging fruit. Eventually the easiest gains are all taken, and people lose interest and move to other things. And as people keep picking away more slowly at the more difficult/involved things, eventually someone will find something that -- probably combined with some completely different existing knowledge -- opens up another new field. And it repeats.

Right now we're in the "low-hanging fruit" phase of (1) computers that are powerful enough to run neural networks, combined with (2) feedback algorithms that allow networks with lots of layers to learn effectively. Sooner or later the gains will get a bit tougher as we understand the field better, and then research will slow even further as many researchers find something else new and shiny -- and with better returns -- to focus on.

Re: This AI Boom Will Also Bust

#130
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the basic criticism here is than Hanson, in suggesting firms clean up their data and then apply simple analytics to it, is defining away the problem that ML solves?

Hanson is economist, not a computer scientist. He may not be right about exactly why the hype is unfounded. But he is not wrong about the fact that it is unfounded. There is no "awe-inspiring" rate of success with these projects, no massive revenue streams that are boiling up all over the landscape, which is absolutely what would have to be happening already to possibly justify predictions of "47% of US jobs in 20 ye…

> The giant piles of dirty data are that way because for thirty years no one has considered them worth cleaning up. How will they create such astounding amounts of unexpected value?

It was left that way because we didn't have the tools to process it. Imagine the amount of unprocessed video data that we can now annotate pretty accurately. What's the value of that data now?

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