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Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

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Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#221
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Uber engineer here) The data is used for (or can be used for) a number of practical and important purposes. These are some examples of what we do as well as what we could do with such data: - Fighting fraud - Improving "suggested pickup" locations - Improvements around POOL (we'd rather suggest a location that's easy to pick up from than one that's unsafe) - Figuring out what side of the street you end up on (we can…

>> The risk of abuse is exceptionally low. I call bullshit. This coming from the same guys who were mapping one night stands using ride data? What were you guys studying there. Fornicating habits of young adults in large metropolitans? http://www.whosdrivingyou.org/blog/ubers-deleted-rides-of-gl... I almost forgot about the time you guys were tracking journalists. Uber has a reputation and history of being a "shady"…

Looks to me that even the most specific information in that article is aggregate data over a large number of users, i.e. population statistics, something I wouldn't consider a breach of anyone's privacy.

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#222
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but why does Uber need/care about that information? If I ask to be dropped off at X and walk a couple blocks to Y, Uber shouldn't care. I can understand the argument that maybe going to certain buildings you have to be dropped off at a specific spot, but that seems like a minor gain for something that's more than just a minor intrusion.

(Uber engineer here) The data is used for (or can be used for) a number of practical and important purposes. These are some examples of what we do as well as what we could do with such data: - Fighting fraud - Improving "suggested pickup" locations - Improvements around POOL (we'd rather suggest a location that's easy to pick up from than one that's unsafe) - Figuring out what side of the street you end up on (we can…

Why not just bring back the "while using only" if only to back up your claim that there is nothing nefarious going on.

Giving people choice is good.

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#223
post #168
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it's the same company that creepily gives me a code interview in the app because it knows I go to a software company couple of times a week and pushes a job ad. Uber has a lot of sensitive information regarding users. Who goes where and when. This in the wrong hand can be very disastrous. E.g Trump to Uber: "gimme list of all people who to to mosques frequently. No tax for you." Uber: "Here you go. Just don't te…

While I love this scenario from a "Trump could abuse his power" narrative, have there been any recorded cases of businesses in America getting "Secret" tax breaks? Seems like it'd be pretty hard to pull off with the IRS. Sure, maybe they "Bundled" that data it in to some ~other~ lobbied tax deal, but I'd imagine someone would whistle blow that pretty quick in this post-snowden world?

> have there been any recorded cases of businesses in America getting "Secret" tax breaks?

The tax law itself isn't secret, but companies certainly lobby for and receive tax breaks and other benefits passed openly by Congress. That's what lobbying is about, of course.

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#224
post #23
post #15

Yeah, after being a "dozen rides a week" Uber user for the last year, I switched to Lyft. There is just no reason for this.

How do you know Lyft doesn't do that? Any blogpost, article would be helpful. Thanks.

It's in the app permissions!

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#225
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The risk of abuse is exceptionally low. I call bullshit. This coming from the same guys who were mapping one night stands using ride data? What were you guys studying there. Fornicating habits of young adults in large metropolitans? http://www.whosdrivingyou.org/blog/ubers-deleted-rides-of-gl... I almost forgot about the time you guys were tracking journalists. Uber has a reputation and history of being a "shady"…

> Uber has a reputation and history of being a "shady" company. I'm not going to try to defend our reputation. But it's worth saying that things are locked down _pretty damn tight_ around sensitive data. I've worked in enterprise file storage in the past, and the internal security at Uber is far better (relatively speaking), and continues to mature.

I don't want to disrespect you personally, but why should I trust Uber? Today it's locked down, tomorrow it's not. Is there anything protecting me?

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#226
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So a follow up question: which is that data used for and which could it be used for currently, and what's planned? I also noticed you said that it's queried in aggregate, but that is distinct from it living in aggregate. Does this mean that you actually do keep my individual GPS data and it could be looked up later? I am still unconvinced that this is necessary, even with those (potential) improvements. I am relative…

> which is that data used for and which could it be used for currently, and what's planned? I don't know specific programs that are in place or upcoming, not my jam. > Does this mean that you actually do keep my individual GPS data and it could be looked up later? Trip location data is attached to users. You can look it up yourself on the Uber website (riders.uber.com). With regard to data collected from rider device…

Also, why isn't there an option to delete previous trip data?

If Uber was really serious about user privacy, this would be a no brainer feature to offer.

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#227
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point, however just because the phone company/NSA has this information, IMHO that doesn't make unnecessarily intrusive apps OK with me.

To each his own. In my view, the cat's out of the bag, so I might as well get a better product out of it.

:(

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#228
I noticed this in the past two weeks - as a result, if I use Uber, I toggle it on, and afterwards I turn it off. This is pretty crappy, I don't need an app punishing my battery by default just so they can collect more data.

It really makes me think twice about sticking with Uber.

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#229
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, at the end of the day, there's someone that can SSH into some server if they were really determined. There's logging and auditing that happens, though, so you'd almost certainly get caught. Could you craft some sort of perfect crime to avoid detection? It would be super hard, but there's no universe with perfectly secure software. It's a big system, and there are thousands of moving parts, and the likelihood…

> there's no universe with perfectly secure software This is why it's important to minimize the attack surface. Yes, there is always going to be risk when you store tracking data. You are choosing to create that risk by storing any data beyond what is specifically necessary . Uses such as "Optimizing pickups and dropoffs" are optional, which you more or less admit when you said it was something "we could do". Alterna…

I don't want to sound like I'm disagreeing with you, but I want to raise some important points. Collecting too much data is definitely a bad thing. But there are things to consider:

> You are choosing to create that risk by storing any data beyond what is specifically necessary.

That's an interesting point and it begs that question of what is "necessary". Does that mean a company should distill its product down the the absolute minimum viable product without collecting any information beyond what is necessary to do its job? Nobody should use Google Analytics because it's not necessary to run a website? "Necessary" isn't black and white.

Pickups and dropoffs are very troublesome parts of an Uber ride (and definitely can't be avoided...the riders need to get in and out of the car without being run over). Uber currently has no way of improving that, without data at least. So what data is "necessary" to make that experience better? How can Uber, or any for-profit company, improve their product if they have no idea what's wrong with it? What kind of data can be collected that falls into the bucket of "necessary"?

> You could expunge user data when it is no longer needed.

Other than when a user leaves the service, how do you know when data is no longer "needed"? How can trends be measured over time if old data is expunged? How can fraud trends be detected if historical payment data is not preserved? How can Uber choose the best restaurants for UberEATS if order history is dropped over time?

When a user leaves a service for a time and returns, do they return to find a completely empty account? Would you expect this from Gmail, or Facebook?

At what point do you draw the line where you say, "I'm sure we'll never need this again."?

> You could find ways to store only aggregate data instead per-user values.

This assumes the data is homogeneous, which it's not. Different people use Uber (and any other service, for that matter) in different ways. Lumping everything together makes it impossible to discern patterns that are substantial but do not represent a majority of your user base: Some folks only ride to and from work. Some folks only ride to and from bars. Some folks only ever use Uber to go to the airport. How do you identify and optimize for these use cases?

It also calls into question how you bucket your data. Location data in California is not relevant to location data in New York. Location data in Rochester is not relevant to location data in New York City. Location data in Brooklyn is not very relevant to location data in Manhattan. At what point do you stop scrubbing your data into an aggregate form? How do you avoid scrubbing too much data away such that you've painted yourself into a corner when you try to solve a problem in the future? How do you avoid scrubbing too little, such that even when the UUIDs are stripped away you can use a big ol' hadoop job against pickup and dropoff locations to figure out which trips belong to which user?

It's worth asking also how much value you can provide to the user if you do all of these things. When I go home for the holidays once a year, I take Uber quite a lot. Should Uber forget my favorite destinations every year because the data gets expunged? Should it only show common destinations because my trip history has been anonymized?

Anyway, this is meant to point out that it's not simply a matter of keeping things as minimal as possible. It's hard to add value while also protecting users, even when the users' best interests are in mind.

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#230
post #160
post #34

I saw this earlier and had hopes that the update would just let me choose "While Using" in the app settings, like some other apps allow you even if they request access even while not using the app, but the settings only allow for "Always" or "Never" on iPhone. However, you can use Uber without allowing GPS, so it's not all or nothing. I'm a little disturbed that they need any information after I use Uber though. They…

Well it's the same company that creepily gives me a code interview in the app because it knows I go to a software company couple of times a week and pushes a job ad. Uber has a lot of sensitive information regarding users. Who goes where and when. This in the wrong hand can be very disastrous. E.g Trump to Uber: "gimme list of all people who to to mosques frequently. No tax for you." Uber: "Here you go. Just don't te…

Sorry to disrupt your narrative but a theoretical action by Trump is worse than what's already happened under Obama?

http://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/477921/

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