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Fidel Castro has died

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Re: Fidel Castro has died

#521

Post by finid »

erokar wrote: post #365
jknoepfler wrote: post #119

I would encourage the commenters in this thread who see Fidel's legacy as a black-and-white matter of an "evil dictator who did bad things and was wrong about economics" to step back, bear witness to the objective facts about Fidel Castro's life ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro ), think sincerely about what could lead a highly intelligent and charismatic person to become or follow Fidel Castro (as many ha…

On the contrary, it's dangerous not to call out evil for what it is. Of course it might be wise to try to analyze what genetic/family/social/economic/political factors shape people like Castro, Gaddafi, Franco etc. — but if you think you're dealing with people like you and me you fail to grasp the phenomenon. Dictators that prosecute and murder their opponents, like Castro did, share a very predictable set of psychop…

Dictators that prosecute and murder their opponents, like Castro did,...

The US govt has done that too, so US presidents are no different from people like Castro, Franco, etc. We have just been brainwashed that our leaders are the good guys and the other guys are the bad guys.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#522

Post by alexro »

kristianc wrote: post #481
narrowrail wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Freedom House, according to wikipedia: "U.S. Government funded non-governmental organisation (NGO) that conducts research and advocacy on democracy, political freedom, and human rights Representatives of Cuba said that the organization is a U.S. foreign policy instrument linked to the CIA and "submitted proof of the politically motivated, interventionist activities the NGO (Freedom House) carried out against th…

It's a little rich of the Russian representative to claim that, given that Russia has just withdrawn from the International Criminal Court. For what it's worth, Human Rights Watch's report about Cuba is also pretty damning: > The Cuban government continues to repress dissent and discourage public criticism. It now relies less on long-term prison sentences to punish its critics, but short-term arbitrary arrests of hum…

US is not part of International Criminal Court either. So what's the point?

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#523

Post by dorfsmay »

cloverich wrote: post #491
dorfsmay wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the communist rhetoric is that complete free speech is not good. But before judging that aspect of communism, remember that it's other type of regime apply the same restrictions, and indeed communism was illegal in the U.S. at some point.

When I first started learning about communism (college really) I went in thinking this. But I recall eventually thinking that if the mantra of communist revolution was a forceful overthrow of existing government -- by definition not the will of the (majority) people - then a ban on the parties (public) existence was justified. Do you agree with the premise and if so does it affect the equality of your comparison at a…

It is different in the sense that restricting free speech is part of the communist theory/ideal, while not a requirement from capitalism. Was the restriction on communism inth U.S. in the 50s the will of the majority of the people?

My point was, restricting free speech is indeed part of communism, but be careful before judging the system in relations to other systems based on that small piece of information. It's easy to start spewing "communism = evil" because we've been told so many times, and just use any small piece of information to justify our position, rather than having a hard look, not only at communism, but all the systems in place, both their theory and applications.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#525

Post by nec4b »

IslaDeEncanta wrote: post #246
hal9000xp wrote: post #106

As a Russian, who was born in USSR, I regret that CIA has failed to assassinate him 50 years ago. May be Cuba would be liberated from communist/socialist disease. Look at countries who declared a war against free markets - Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea. They are absolutely pathetic.

Russia still has not regained the standard of living that existed during the USSR.

You mean the times when they were standing in line for toilet paper and bread or the times when millions of Ukrainians died from hunger.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#526

Post by cmbailey »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #397
erokar wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, it's dangerous not to call out evil for what it is. Of course it might be wise to try to analyze what genetic/family/social/economic/political factors shape people like Castro, Gaddafi, Franco etc. — but if you think you're dealing with people like you and me you fail to grasp the phenomenon. Dictators that prosecute and murder their opponents, like Castro did, share a very predictable set of psychop…

>> "On the contrary, it's dangerous not to call out evil for what it is." Judging on the comments on this thread most people (I'm not specifically referring to you) are making statements based on what they've heard, not by what they've personally researched, and unfortunately a lot of that information is biased or propaganda. I'm not coming down one way or the other but something I found very interesting was comparin…

Fidel Castro leaves behind a nation awash with tears and blood from thousands of executions, tens of thousands of political prisoners, concentration camps for gay men, labor camps for those who thought differently, listened to jazz, or even just had long hair.

These are facts I learned only after doing more research, after listening to friends who are gay and who did years of research.

So we all need to be careful not to repeat the trope "but healthcare and education were good and free and available to all". I for many years allowed those reports, parroted so often, to soften my judgment of Castro. But now learning of the extent of the horrors of oppression, those outweigh any social welfare "results".

And now I have had cause to question even those results as I read and learn of a healthcare system where critical operations that were performed only after agonizing waits for eight months and then by doctors and nurses so starved of supplies that they sometimes operated with bare hands.

Castro should be remembered for the suffering he caused - all of it preventable. The best way to him sum up is to consider that he created an island prison where nobody was allowed to leave without his permission - and for an unbearable number of years most of the world applauded him. I hope you will remember this and hear the cynical trying to tie themselves to a "distinguished legacy" when politicians comment today.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#527

Post by friendlygrammar »

ifdefdebug wrote: post #226
friendlygrammar wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just have to ask, at what point does praise becomes uncivil? Is it when you praise Fidel who has stifled freedom of speech and condemned his people to a life of economic stagnation? What about Chavez who has condemned his people to starvation? Or is it praising Kim Jong Un? Or is it praising Hitler? Or is it praising Stalin? Or is it praising the KKK? There is only 1 ideology responsible for killing more than 100 m…

Not being a communist myself, I recognize this as utter anticommunist propaganda not based on facts but on believes.

Anticommunist propaganda? You realize that the man killed thousands, imprisoned tens of thousands for their beliefs and condemned the entire island to poverty.

What is misleading about anything I've just stated? Because that is one of the requirements for something to be propaganda.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#528

Post by wz1000 »

gragas wrote: post #117
coldtea wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, the man has committed grievous crimes Way less crimes than those who accuse him. Never sprayed Vietnamese with Agent Orange or napalms for one, never dropped nuclear bombs on civilians, never supported Pinochet et co, doesn't have 25% of the world's incarcerated in just 4% of the global population, and lots of other things besides. > keeps 'his people' in abject poverty A 40+ years embargo has something to…

>Way less crimes than those who accuse him. Never sprayed Vietnamese with Agent Orange or napalms for one, never dropped nuclear bombs on civilians, never supported Pinochet et co, doesn't have 25% of the world's incarcerated in just 4% of the global population, and lots of other things besides. That's a logical fallacy. You can't say that Castro's crimes against humanity are okay because the US has committed worse o…

> Only a US embargo. That leaves more than 80% of the world GDP to interact with.

Nope. The US brutally punished countries which traded with Cuba. The best and most macabre example of this would be the 1974 Bangladesh Famine, which had a death toll of 1-1.5 million, and was almost entirely preventable.

After the 1971 Bangladesh Liberation war, when Bangladesh achieved its independence from America-backed Pakistan, US initially refused to recognize Bangladesh as a country and trade with it because Bangladesh wanted to prosecute Pakistani war criminals, responsible for the worst genocide since the Holodomor(and committed using American arms). Infact, Nixon and the US refused to condemn Pakistani actions, and actively worked to suppress evidence of their crimes.

When the famine started in 1974, the US initially promised food aid to Bangladesh, but refused to deliver because Bangladesh exported jute to Cuba(Cuba was one of the first countries to recognize Bangladeshi independence). By the time Bangladesh agreed to stop all trade relations with Cuba, and US aid finally arrived, the famine was pretty much over and had claimed its 1,500,000+ victims. Now, to make it clear, the US had 2 million+ tonnes of grain pretty much ready to deliver, but held back at the last moment while hundreds of thousands were starving to death. This was also while US was giving huge amounts of grain as food aid to surplus food producing South Vietnam, which the Vietnamese traded for weapons.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#529

Post by friendlygrammar »

tscs37 wrote: post #217
friendlygrammar wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

then do it and post proof

Now you're being rude. You asked if I would, not if I will. If I had the chance to do so I would, but I'm currently committed to do other things first. Or do you believe that if someone wanted to go to Cuba that must be their sole and only motivation from that point on? You should't simplify people like that. It's rude.

You just said you would. Clearly, if you aren't going to do it you wouldn't. Now you have your entire life to prove me wrong.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#530

Post by sabertoothed »

Lordarminius wrote: post #520
GunboatDiplomat wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He believed in freedom and dignity. That's exactly why he never allowed free election, a free press, free speech, free markets, or freedom to leave his island paradise. >He saw the US government as the enemy of progress everywhere in the world That just makes him an idiot. The US government has been the primary proponent of progress, spreading free markets and democracy around the globe. >What opposition? Imperiali…

> The US government has been the primary proponent of progress, spreading free markets and democracy around the globe Who would have guessed? The Iraquis, libyans, Chileans (after 1972), maybe the people of Zaire under Mobutu,or the oppressed blacks in apartheid South Africa , heck forget that look at the blacks in America!, and the native American Indians!!, how great their lot is; the list of people who have 'enjoy…

Interesting how you did not address his/her first point...
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