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Fidel Castro has died

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Re: Fidel Castro has died

#61

Post by wallace_f »

gragas wrote: post #36
friendlygrammar wrote: post #29

.

I agree. It's absolutely insane to side with Castro. Even if you agree with his political philosophy, there is overwhelming objective evidence of how awful it is: - Cuban economy - Cuban quality of life - basic Cuban freedoms (like supporting parties other than the one in power)

> basic Cuban freedoms (like supporting parties other than the one in power)

To be fair in the US there are also attacks for supporting political parties. Yes it's a different degree of extremism entirely.

For example the terrorist/riot/civil activist group (whatever you want to call them) By Any Means Necessary violently attacked white nationalist parties (they claim they're not white nationalists, but media says they are, I don't know anything about them beyond that) at rallies without legal consequence. No I'm not defending white nationalists, I'm defending right to assembly. What I'm saying is that if that's your argument for why Cuba is terrible then it's not consistent unless you are making the same argument about America as well. If you just happen to agree that they're a "bad party," so you it's OK here, not there, that's exactly what authoritarian government is.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#62

Post by friendlygrammar »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #44
friendlygrammar wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How am I going to comment civilly? This is a dictator and there are people praising him here! WTF. This might be easy for you to comment on when you didn't lose your entire life because of this man but people have.

It's possible to comment civilly on difficult topics. It just requires that you choose to. HN is a place to gratify one's intellectual curiosity. Part of the fabric of the community is that we engage in a civil, substantive way. There are various topics that don't always make that easy, but it's important that we try.

I just have to ask, at what point does praise becomes uncivil? Is it when you praise Fidel who has stifled freedom of speech and condemned his people to a life of economic stagnation? What about Chavez who has condemned his people to starvation? Or is it praising Kim Jong Un? Or is it praising Hitler? Or is it praising Stalin? Or is it praising the KKK?

There is only 1 ideology responsible for killing more than 100 million people in the existence of human civilization. Try considering that for a second.

We will likely not understand what Fidel has done to the Cuban people for a few more decades but I will take the role of oracle and tell you. 100 years from now Cuba will still be poor and it will still be an inexpensive tourist destination for rich white people from Canada and Europe.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#63

Post by edblarney »

djsumdog wrote: post #38
chirau wrote: post #24

As an African, I'd say the world has lost one of the most influential leaders of the past century. To pretend here, for me, as if he was cruel to our continent would be both ungrateful and untrue. The man offered free training and medical school for most of our African doctors, he harbored, trained and armed many a guerilla group in our pursuit of independence from colonization. Up until today, Cuba still sends signi…

The western view of Castro is painted with decades of terrible propaganda. The Cuban people have been placed in their situation, not primarily by the Soviets or Castro, but by the American Hegemony and its unending empire across the globe. Many central and south American heads of state have tried to stand up to that empire, and many have died in plane crashes. Hugh Chavez, demonized in American media, put pieces of t…

"The western view of Castro is painted with decades of terrible propaganda."

+ Fidel does not allow his people to leave, with the threat of punishment.

+ Fidel does not allow democracy

+ He does not allow any real internet access

+ Fidel puts political dissidents in jail

+ Fidel's private Army own's 85% of the economy

+ Cuban's live in relative poverty

+ Only the US 'embargos' Cuba, they are free to trade with 167 other nations in the world - and even buy American products from wherever they want - just not America.

This is not 'propaganda'.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#64

Post by wallace_f »

CalChris wrote: post #50
gragas wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It's absolutely insane to side with Castro. Even if you agree with his political philosophy, there is overwhelming objective evidence of how awful it is: - Cuban economy - Cuban quality of life - basic Cuban freedoms (like supporting parties other than the one in power)

Per capita GDP for Cuba is $6,789 Mexico $9,909 Guatamala $3,666 Honduras $2,495 I'd say Cuba is in the mix GDP-wise. http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD

Considering economic sanctions and political isolation in the region, it actually appears they're not doing too bad actually, eh?

With economics and politics, the story is always more complicated than it appears, and science can't save us, so we should be hesitant to form strong opinions. I'm just supporting open-minded thinking, not saying I agree with everything Castro/Cuba (I don't).

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#65

Post by edblarney »

plandis wrote: post #30

I might not agree with his methods but he did seem like a leader that legitimately cared about Cubas citizens.

I don't see how a leader that 'cares about his people' would not allow them to leave their island prison, not have democracy, not have access to the internet, not trade with one another.

I don't think he cared about them in any way. He had a totalitarian view of how they should be, and he forced that upon them.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#66

Post by elcapitan »

djsumdog wrote: post #52
mememachine wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of the incredible harm to humanity done at the hands of communists over just the past 100 years alone

When you buy a beer for your friends at a bar and maybe next week they buy a round, that's communism. Communism is a central part of western society. China, the USSA and Cuba were never communism. They varied between heavy socialism (also a pinical of all high income countries: roads, trains, parks, police, fire, airports) and fascism. A lot of people who just go on about communists, today, in 2016, seemed to have no…

> When you buy a beer for your friends at a bar and maybe next week they buy a round, that's communism. Communism is a central part of western society.

Communism is when you and your friends go to a bar and there is no beer, because there was not enough grain produced on command of the central planning committee 4 years ago. Now you and your friends are upset and complain about it, so you get arrested and locked up without trial because you are betraying communist ideals.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#67

Post by meric »

gragas wrote: post #53
djsumdog wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The western view of Castro is painted with decades of terrible propaganda. The Cuban people have been placed in their situation, not primarily by the Soviets or Castro, but by the American Hegemony and its unending empire across the globe. Many central and south American heads of state have tried to stand up to that empire, and many have died in plane crashes. Hugh Chavez, demonized in American media, put pieces of t…

They've been isolated for like half a century; they've had more than enough time to implement whatever form of government they want. It's clear that Castro's communism doesn't work. The US didn't cause this. They tried to stop it.

That's why the US sanctioned Cuba.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#68

Post by redial »

mememachine wrote: post #42
ant6n wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it 'unforgivable' to be communist?

Because of the incredible harm to humanity done at the hands of communists over just the past 100 years alone

Every time I read a comment like that, I remember that history is written by the winners.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#69

Post by gragas »

jknoepfler wrote: post #55
gragas wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was also an evil dictator who silenced any and all opposition. And you can't argue that his political philosophy works either---just look at Cuba today.

That he was a dictator is uncontroversial. The word 'evil' in this context is probably meaningless. Cuba's trajectory through world history under Castro is in turns tragic, heroic, idealistic, and cynical. The comment you are replying to is embracing that complexity. Paving over it with simplistic thinking "Castro was evil and wrong" does a great deal of violence to the truth. I am no fan of the shape Fidel Castro's…

>Paving over it with simplistic thinking "Castro was evil and wrong" does a great deal of violence to the truth.

I honestly agree.

I just think it is ridiculous to claim that Castro was "a great leader" when Cuba has fared very poorly under Castro in almost every respect. I felt obliged to point this out.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#70

Post by miiiiiike »

Growing up in a northern US state Cuba and the US policies affecting it always seemed remote. Besides studying the facts in school I never gave the Cuban Revolution, Cuba, or Castor much thought until I played "Cuba Libre: Castro's Insurgency (1957-1958)" this summer.

Reading the historical/design notes in the player's guide and watching events unfold while playing as M26 brought history to life in a very visceral way. I spent the week after playing obsessively reading about modern Cuban history.

http://www.gmtgames.com/p-497-cuba-libre-reprint-edition.asp...

Cuba Libre is part of a game series on COunter-INsurgencies (COIN). "Liberty or Death: The American Insurrection" covers the American Revolution using the same system.

http://www.gmtgames.com/p-582-liberty-or-death-the-american-...

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