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Fidel Castro has died

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Re: Fidel Castro has died

#361

Post by realusername »

apsec112 wrote: post #338
hkt wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fixation people have with expanding middle classes is odd. I'd say progress where the poorest are included in social gains is more valuable than any other kind. Otherwise we end up with societies like the US where some parts of the population live in ghettoes worthy of the worst of the third world.

With all due respect, that's a crazy exaggeration. There is nowhere in America where the entire neighborhood has no electricity, no running water, no sewage, and no paved roads. Such places are common in Africa and India. https://www.facebook.com/126979a/posts/10101269399749522

There are indeed places in the US without running water right now (see Flint as an example). I also don't think comparing with in development countries is relevant.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#362

Post by notahacker »

Lordarminius wrote: post #91

After reading some of the comments here, my fath in the human race is not enhanced. Castro was a genuine hero and a great man; indeed among the top 10 greatest individuals of the 20th century. He believed in freedom and dignity. He saw the US government as the enemy of progress everywhere in the world; he wanted people to be free and he devoted his life to that ideal. How many people can you say that of? > He was als…

To be honest, if you're willing to make arguments that sending troops 4000km to protect your own citizens from Galtieri's invading military junta was a more dictatorial act than, say, rounding up homosexuals, hippies and clergy and incarcerating them in UMAP forced labour camps - something even Castro conceded was a "great injustice" - then there's literally no reasoning with you...

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#363

Post by bjourne »

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #17

Is there anyway way that castro could have done his revolution that wasn't opposed to the us? suppose you lived in a country that was ruled by a dictator that was supported by foreign powers, and you wanted to end that dictatorship so the people got freedom? that part seems okay. castro was a communist, that was unforgivable. but think about how the us treated chile and pinochet and other south american leaders. Like…

Castro wasn't a Communist, he was a Socialist. But the Americans didn't knew the difference and they probably never will. Castro didn't hate the US and he wasn't the one who cut the ties.

The blockade of Cuba began before Castro nationalized the American-owned oil refineries by Eisenhower drastically reducing the amount of sugar Cuba could export to the US. As the Cuban economy was dependent on sugar exports they didn't have much choice when the Soviet Union stepped in and offered to buy their sugar.

The rest is history. Cuba aligning with the Soviet Union was by force, not by choice. That's why the blockade was such a cluster-fuck from the beginning.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#364

Post by edblarney »

ageofwant wrote: post #156
gragas wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Way less crimes than those who accuse him. Never sprayed Vietnamese with Agent Orange or napalms for one, never dropped nuclear bombs on civilians, never supported Pinochet et co, doesn't have 25% of the world's incarcerated in just 4% of the global population, and lots of other things besides. That's a logical fallacy. You can't say that Castro's crimes against humanity are okay because the US has committed worse o…

It would be a logical fallacy if coldtea actually made that claim. He did not. He simply pointed out that edblamey moral high ground is a fallacy in itself, when so many of those Western nations stand accused of worse.

Western nations have not 'done worse' in modern times.

The logical fallacy I think is yours for trying to compare Cuba to the USA in a tit-for-tat comparison of misrepresented facts and issues.

Dropping a nuclear bomb seems 'bad' until you put it in the context of what the Japanese were doing, and the costs otherwise.

The North Vietnamese that the Americans & South Vietnamese were fighting against were 10x worse than Castro (they executed 100's of thousands in the streets - and put millions in concentration camps after the Americans withdrew) - and using 'agent Orange' was an act of reasonable desperation on the part of the Americans as it was used only to clear foliage near American firebases, the casualties were mostly American and of course it was not done with the knowledge people would be hurt - the author of the note makes it seem like it was used on purpose to hurt Vietnamese which is a gross misrepresentation.

Americas role in the world is fundamentally different than that of Cuba (and of course there is the issue of scale) which makes it futile to compare the USA to Cuba, tit-for-tat in terms of 'things done'.

But the comparison is resolved rather more pragmatically:

People literally risk everything, including their lives to flee Cuba to get to America.

Never the other way around.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#365

Post by erokar »

jknoepfler wrote: post #119

I would encourage the commenters in this thread who see Fidel's legacy as a black-and-white matter of an "evil dictator who did bad things and was wrong about economics" to step back, bear witness to the objective facts about Fidel Castro's life ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro ), think sincerely about what could lead a highly intelligent and charismatic person to become or follow Fidel Castro (as many ha…

On the contrary, it's dangerous not to call out evil for what it is. Of course it might be wise to try to analyze what genetic/family/social/economic/political factors shape people like Castro, Gaddafi, Franco etc. — but if you think you're dealing with people like you and me you fail to grasp the phenomenon.

Dictators that prosecute and murder their opponents, like Castro did, share a very predictable set of psychopathic/narcissistic/paranoid personality characteristics. They are, by definition, not normal.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#366

Post by sebastianconcpt »

I invite you to step back and think that you are free to share your filomarxisms here where you have freedoms instead of promoting a genocidal system that is at heart and soul of totalitarian people like Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot and Castro. Hasta la liberty siempre! Enjoy

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#367

Post by rbanffy »

wildmusings wrote: post #233
jknoepfler wrote: post #119

I would encourage the commenters in this thread who see Fidel's legacy as a black-and-white matter of an "evil dictator who did bad things and was wrong about economics" to step back, bear witness to the objective facts about Fidel Castro's life ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro ), think sincerely about what could lead a highly intelligent and charismatic person to become or follow Fidel Castro (as many ha…

My family and the family of just about everyone I grew up around had their whole lives destroyed by this evil man. He has executed thousands, has imprisoned thousands more, and has totally ruined a country that was once the most prosperous in Latin America. You may philosophize about the 'complexity' of the life of this evil man, but for people who actually lived under his abuse, who have seen what he has done to the…

It's easy to forget the cost of prosperity to those who were not prosperous. Pre-Castro Cuba was rife with racism and inequality, extreme and abject poverty, a segregated society, under violently repressive and corrupt governments.

I can't say anything about your experience, but I can share something about my childhood in Brazil. A middle-class home, private school, private health-care family under a brutal US-sponsored military dictatorship. I never even suspected people were getting arrested and murdered for criticizing the government. I enjoyed the military parades. It never occurred to me that public school was really bad, that not every kid had access to it (most didn't), that unless you had a stable job (and, once labeled a subversive, that was mostly impossible), you had absolutely no health care. The cost of my happy childhood completely eluded me until I was an adult.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#368

Post by sebastianconcpt »

mullingitover wrote: post #341
tmptmp wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charismatic? Yes, but so was Hitler and Osama bin Laden. Revolutionary? yes, but so was Hitler. So, let's get it clear that that doesn't make him humane and good for society. >>If you think you're better, then do better. Be better. Don't refuse to acknowledge the humanity of another person because you believe you can totalize their entire life under a cheap tagline. This is a disingenuous advice. Will you not critici…

Zero to Godwin in two posts.

Best case where Godwin becomes a non-antiargument because you are talking about a socialist totalitarian in both cases right?

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#369

Post by Jenya_ »

IslaDeEncanta wrote: post #246
hal9000xp wrote: post #106

As a Russian, who was born in USSR, I regret that CIA has failed to assassinate him 50 years ago. May be Cuba would be liberated from communist/socialist disease. Look at countries who declared a war against free markets - Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea. They are absolutely pathetic.

Russia still has not regained the standard of living that existed during the USSR.

I do not agree, oil wealth moved Russia miles ahead of 80s USSR experience (I see this first-hand).

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#370

Post by realusername »

barsonme wrote: post #323
ifdefdebug wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are some points of propaganda: > Fidel does not allow his people to leave, with the threat of punishment. Everybody is (now) free to leave Cuba. But OK, I think that's fairly recent. > Fidel's private Army own's 85% of the economy "Fidel's private Army" is just an ugly sound byte. It's the Cuban army and it's not going to be dissolved now that he's dead. > Cuban's live in relative poverty While poverty is a prob…

Is American and Cuban poverty the same?

The extreme poverty in the US can honestly be worse than Cuban poverty.
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