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Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

nytimes.com

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Re: Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

#41

Post by atsaloli »

atsaloli wrote: post #36
lambertsimnel wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, human rights aren't entirely uniform. There is a right to liberty that doesn't extend to all convicted criminals. However, convicted criminals (even those convicted of serious crimes) should be (and often are) granted some rights. For one thing, they might be innocent or improperly convicted.

There are no exceptions to human rights as listed in the UN Declaration on Human Rights. http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/inde... However, article 29 says: (2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting t…

There is a simplified version of the UNDHR (easily readable and intended for young people) at http://www.youthforhumanrights.org/what-are-human-rights/uni...

Youth for Human Rights International is a non-profit organization whose purpose is to educate the young on human rights and activate supporters and promoters and defenders of human rights.

Re: Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

#42

Post by wuschel »

mtgx wrote: post #27
rz2k wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the vague impression that there was some sort of unspoken deal not to prosecute the people who ordered torture and the people who followed those unlawful orders for the sake of reconciliation between sides of culture wars. How could we have prosecuted the torturers but not the people giving the orders? Or, how could we prosecute the former vice president, but not the former commander in chief? Even though we ar…

Unspoken deal? Obama literally said we "should look forward not backwards" to Bush's crimes as soon as he got elected. And now Trump may hire some of the same worst of the worst people that Bush hired, and went unpunished. History may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme, especially when people refuse to condemn certain past actions and "move forward" as if nothing happened. And then get surprised that those same act…

Let's not forget that Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize for ...well, for not being Bush?

A prize from a war profiteur in explosives and munitions to a war monger of drones.

So many things are failing, sometimes I think we are a hopeless race.

But fortunately, there are decent people around - and that gives me hope.

Re: Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

#43

Post by lambertsimnel »

Chris2048 wrote: post #38
lambertsimnel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No presidential candidate got ≥50% of the vote. Clinton got the most votes, but still less than half. And that's just out of votes cast. Clinton got the backing of barely 27% of eligible voters and Trump got even less.

Comment said "of American voters". If you don't vote, you lose it, so why mention this?

To me "voters" seems as likely to mean "those eligible to vote" as not. I agree that the proportion of votes cast is more relevant.

Re: Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

#44

Post by dualogy »

pmoriarty wrote: post #25

Trump has said that "torture works" , and "I like waterboarding a lot" , and that he would "bring back a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding" . When asked about former CIA Director Michael Hayden’s recent comments that the military could defy unlawful orders to torture or kill civilians, Trump said, "They won’t refuse. They’re not going to refuse, believe me." Thanks 50% of American voters. You're helping to make…

That's what Obama gets for not closing Guantanamo Bay after 2 terms, 8 years+ since the promise. Different political brandings during the elections for the peons, same neocons behind the curtains doing Just Neocon Thangs. What would Hillary do, "we stayed, we tortured, they died"? While Soros brightest younguns riot for transgender bathrooms when not on campus indulging in Play-Doh and therapy dogs..

Re: Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

#46

Post by cloakandswagger »

pavlov wrote: post #9
Kenji wrote: post #8

Remember when Obama promised to close the Guantánamo prison? I think that was more than 8 years ago now. Good times. I even believed it. I guess he didn't care that much about human rights after all.

Read this: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/08/01/why-obama-has-f... Yes, it's very long. It turned out to be much harder to close Guantánamo Bay than Obama thought, with powerful forces in the government opposing or stalling. (It's also illustrative of the difficulties Trump may have carrying through any of his promises that are controversial with the Republican orthodoxy.)

Whether it was feasible for Obama to close it or not, it's hard to deny that there was a fundamental shift in Obama's ideology once he took office (see: extra-judicial assassinations, abandoning Guantanamo closure, etc)

I suspect that there are some pretty powerful briefings a new president receives that draw back the veil in such a way that targeted killings and torture seem like the only effective response.

Re: Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

#47

Post by benchaney »

Chris2048 wrote: post #38
lambertsimnel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No presidential candidate got ≥50% of the vote. Clinton got the most votes, but still less than half. And that's just out of votes cast. Clinton got the backing of barely 27% of eligible voters and Trump got even less.

Comment said "of American voters". If you don't vote, you lose it, so why mention this?

Even if you include only votes cast, both Clinton and Trump got < 50% of votes.

Re: Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

#48

Post by spraak »

dualogy wrote: post #44
pmoriarty wrote: post #25

Trump has said that "torture works" , and "I like waterboarding a lot" , and that he would "bring back a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding" . When asked about former CIA Director Michael Hayden’s recent comments that the military could defy unlawful orders to torture or kill civilians, Trump said, "They won’t refuse. They’re not going to refuse, believe me." Thanks 50% of American voters. You're helping to make…

That's what Obama gets for not closing Guantanamo Bay after 2 terms, 8 years+ since the promise. Different political brandings during the elections for the peons, same neocons behind the curtains doing Just Neocon Thangs. What would Hillary do, "we stayed, we tortured, they died"? While Soros brightest younguns riot for transgender bathrooms when not on campus indulging in Play-Doh and therapy dogs..

> While Soros brightest younguns riot for transgender bathrooms when not on campus indulging in Play-Doh and therapy dogs..

What are you referencing?

Re: Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

#49

Post by rublev »

spraak wrote: post #48
dualogy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what Obama gets for not closing Guantanamo Bay after 2 terms, 8 years+ since the promise. Different political brandings during the elections for the peons, same neocons behind the curtains doing Just Neocon Thangs. What would Hillary do, "we stayed, we tortured, they died"? While Soros brightest younguns riot for transgender bathrooms when not on campus indulging in Play-Doh and therapy dogs..

> While Soros brightest younguns riot for transgender bathrooms when not on campus indulging in Play-Doh and therapy dogs.. What are you referencing?

Probably United We Dream.

Re: Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

#50

Post by xorxornop »

cloakandswagger wrote: post #46
pavlov wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read this: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/08/01/why-obama-has-f... Yes, it's very long. It turned out to be much harder to close Guantánamo Bay than Obama thought, with powerful forces in the government opposing or stalling. (It's also illustrative of the difficulties Trump may have carrying through any of his promises that are controversial with the Republican orthodoxy.)

Whether it was feasible for Obama to close it or not, it's hard to deny that there was a fundamental shift in Obama's ideology once he took office (see: extra-judicial assassinations, abandoning Guantanamo closure, etc) I suspect that there are some pretty powerful briefings a new president receives that draw back the veil in such a way that targeted killings and torture seem like the only effective response.

That or the surveillance apparatus was used in a way so as to ensure that he toed the line...
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