Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 71 posts

Re: Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

#21

Post by rz2k »

UhUhUhUh wrote: post #14

The "we didn't know" bit is eerily familiar and I will not expand. The other thing that came to mind was the 1971 Stanford Experiment (Zimbardo). It is ironical that this experiment would not be able to take place today, out of "ethical" considerations but that its real-life version is publicly funded and tacitly approved. All this is extremely frightening...

I get the vague impression that there was some sort of unspoken deal not to prosecute the people who ordered torture and the people who followed those unlawful orders for the sake of reconciliation between sides of culture wars.

How could we have prosecuted the torturers but not the people giving the orders? Or, how could we prosecute the former vice president, but not the former commander in chief? Even though we are part of treaties that promise we will not torture, practical politics seems to be more powerful than the rule of law, and there would have had to be a much more overwhelming mandate.

Instead, it seems like we have forgiven people for commandeering the power we gave them for unlawful uses from one perspective[1], but the other perspective is that they did not do something wrong. Based on the rhetoric of this campaign it seems like timidity, instead of leading to some sort of reconciliation, has lead to the normalization of torture. Now even low caliber network television shows such as 24 and Madame Secretary have protagonists casually carrying out or ordering torture without the implicit condemnation that would have been written into the plot 20 years ago.

[1] Forgiving the breach of trust for misusing power you gave someone is of course different than the type of forgiveness actual victims could grant.

Re: Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

#22

Post by mikeash »

Kenji wrote: post #8

Remember when Obama promised to close the Guantánamo prison? I think that was more than 8 years ago now. Good times. I even believed it. I guess he didn't care that much about human rights after all.

Remember when Congress worked tirelessly to block him, and ended up winning because they're ultimately the ones in control? Obama shouldn't have promised something beyond his power, but you shouldn't have believed him either, considering.

Re: Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

#24

Post by wruza »

lambertsimnel wrote: post #20
wruza wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For that it must be a war. Killing random people in terror acts is not making you a warrior, it just de-facto withdraws your human rights.

Isn't terrorism outside war a criminal act? Aren't human rights so called because all humans have them?

Formally, yes. But let's remember why rights and laws exist at all. To regulate the society and reintegrate erroneous elements after correction. In practice, you cannot reintegrate extremist outsiders, because they are not even 'our elements'. (I'm not american, if that is important.)

If we get human rights as an axiom, then yes, these are broken. But the picture is much wider now than just 'all humans are equal and same in rights', because enemy doesn't think so (also as an axiom). When two axioms clash, only bigger theory can resolve that. Am I wrong?

Re: Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

#25

Post by pmoriarty »

Trump has said that "torture works", and "I like waterboarding a lot", and that he would "bring back a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding".

When asked about former CIA Director Michael Hayden’s recent comments that the military could defy unlawful orders to torture or kill civilians, Trump said, "They won’t refuse. They’re not going to refuse, believe me."

Thanks 50% of American voters. You're helping to make the world an even worse shithole than it already is.

Trump couldn't have done it without you.

Re: Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

#26

Post by lambertsimnel »

wruza wrote: post #24
lambertsimnel wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't terrorism outside war a criminal act? Aren't human rights so called because all humans have them?

Formally, yes. But let's remember why rights and laws exist at all. To regulate the society and reintegrate erroneous elements after correction. In practice, you cannot reintegrate extremist outsiders, because they are not even 'our elements'. (I'm not american, if that is important.) If we get human rights as an axiom, then yes, these are broken. But the picture is much wider now than just 'all humans are equal and…

As I understand it, human rights aren't entirely uniform. There is a right to liberty that doesn't extend to all convicted criminals. However, convicted criminals (even those convicted of serious crimes) should be (and often are) granted some rights. For one thing, they might be innocent or improperly convicted.

Re: Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

#27

Post by mtgx »

rz2k wrote: post #21
UhUhUhUh wrote: post #14

The "we didn't know" bit is eerily familiar and I will not expand. The other thing that came to mind was the 1971 Stanford Experiment (Zimbardo). It is ironical that this experiment would not be able to take place today, out of "ethical" considerations but that its real-life version is publicly funded and tacitly approved. All this is extremely frightening...

I get the vague impression that there was some sort of unspoken deal not to prosecute the people who ordered torture and the people who followed those unlawful orders for the sake of reconciliation between sides of culture wars. How could we have prosecuted the torturers but not the people giving the orders? Or, how could we prosecute the former vice president, but not the former commander in chief? Even though we ar…

Unspoken deal? Obama literally said we "should look forward not backwards" to Bush's crimes as soon as he got elected. And now Trump may hire some of the same worst of the worst people that Bush hired, and went unpunished.

History may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme, especially when people refuse to condemn certain past actions and "move forward" as if nothing happened. And then get surprised that those same actions are done again.

This is one of the best articles I've read post-election. I do hope this time America actually does wake-up and look itself in the mirror. It's about time it did that.

https://medium.com/@omarkamel/im-arab-and-many-of-us-are-gla...

I've also said before that Americans don't really get what mass surveillance is about, and are thus allowing it to happen and expand under their "favorite president" because they've never really had to suffer for it, as some eastern European countries have. Well, now, they may get that opportunity, and even some staunch surveillance defenders are getting freaked out about it. Good luck.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20161111/00230136015/long-...

Re: Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

#28

Post by lambertsimnel »

pmoriarty wrote: post #25

Trump has said that "torture works" , and "I like waterboarding a lot" , and that he would "bring back a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding" . When asked about former CIA Director Michael Hayden’s recent comments that the military could defy unlawful orders to torture or kill civilians, Trump said, "They won’t refuse. They’re not going to refuse, believe me." Thanks 50% of American voters. You're helping to make…

No presidential candidate got ≥50% of the vote. Clinton got the most votes, but still less than half. And that's just out of votes cast. Clinton got the backing of barely 27% of eligible voters and Trump got even less.

Re: Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

#29

Post by gragas »

pmoriarty wrote: post #25

Trump has said that "torture works" , and "I like waterboarding a lot" , and that he would "bring back a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding" . When asked about former CIA Director Michael Hayden’s recent comments that the military could defy unlawful orders to torture or kill civilians, Trump said, "They won’t refuse. They’re not going to refuse, believe me." Thanks 50% of American voters. You're helping to make…

I think people voted for Trump because they agree with his stance. Is that such a ridiculous idea?

Re: Where Even Nightmares Are Classified: Psychiatric Care at Guantánamo

#30

Post by 75j »

One of the most disturbing stories that I don't hear mentioned is of Sean Baker, who was working undercover for the USAF as part of an attempt to gauge the abuses at Guantanamo. Baker was beaten by the guards so badly that he got a serious brain injury.

"In January 2003, Baker was ordered by an officer at Guantanamo to play the role of a prisoner in a training drill. [...] The soldiers in the reaction force were operating under the impression that he was a genuine detainee that had assaulted a sergeant. [...] Although Baker shouted out the safeword ("red") he had been given to stop the exercise and stated that he was a U.S. soldier, the soldier continued beating Baker's head against the floor and choking him. Only after he ripped his prison jumpsuit in the struggle, revealing that he was wearing a battle dress uniform and government-issue boots underneath, did the beating stop."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Baker_(soldier)

Post reply on HN