Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

nature.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 173 posts

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#121

Post by anbende »

asciimo wrote: post #116
kbenson wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To be humane means "having or showing compassion or benevolence" which is about as far from how you can describe the treatment of livestock that you can get. The problem I have with this is that like in so many other subjects, a too general term has been used to describe a specific type of practice. Traditional farming is very different than factory farming (which seems to be what you are describing), and there are…

Considering that 99 percent of US meat comes from factory farms[1], there's little point in discussing other forms of farming. [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2010/12/why-free-r...

If there are ways of farming that are ethical that are already in use (the 1% in your argument), then we absolutely should discuss those. We would want to start increasing that number.

It changes things considerably whether livestock can be raised ethically. If they can, we can try to do that. If they can't, then the only ethical solution is to stop raising livestock. So discussing that 1% has practical implications.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#122

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

lostlogin wrote: post #86
nostromo wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about monkeys here - humanity's closest relatives. If we want AI to treat us well in the far future, we should treat monkeys and apes with dignity and respect today.

Why just them though? We don't treat humans that well a lot of the time, and if AI looked to us for an example, things are going to be rough.

Yes, it is troubling that the two societies most like to create AGI are the USA and China.

Although I'm probably not being critical enough. All of the cultures that have survived to this stage are fairly aggressive and generally destructive.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#123

Post by Asooka »

lostlogin wrote: post #90
sandworm101 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The desire to protect dogs/cats/horses over other animals isn't cognitive dissonance. Our relationship to certain species goes deeper than intellectual debates. We have evolved dogs from wolves, and so to have we evolved alongside them, to see value beyond meat. We have an instinct that protects dogs and cats because they are more valuable than food. They gather and protect our food. Pigs may be more intelligent, but…

I wonder if this is slowly changing as values change. In NZ there is a growing movement to eradicate pests to help protect native species. Cats fall on the wrong side of this goal. There have been public calls by high profile individuals to eradicate cats. Maybe someday birds will be seen to greater value than cats down here. http://nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10...

Society has flip-flopped on treating cats as pets or as pests, or even as witch familiars. Call me when people agree to kill dogs, who can wreck native populations a lot worse than cats, if left to breed unchecked on streets.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#124

Post by kbenson »

asciimo wrote: post #116
kbenson wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To be humane means "having or showing compassion or benevolence" which is about as far from how you can describe the treatment of livestock that you can get. The problem I have with this is that like in so many other subjects, a too general term has been used to describe a specific type of practice. Traditional farming is very different than factory farming (which seems to be what you are describing), and there are…

Considering that 99 percent of US meat comes from factory farms[1], there's little point in discussing other forms of farming. [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2010/12/why-free-r...

> Considering that 99 percent of US meat comes from factory farms[1], there's little point in discussing other forms of farming.

First, that would only possibly be true if we constrained ourselves to meat production. The original comment I replied to specifically called out dairy, and it's partially what I was thinking of when I replied.

Second, that doesn't make sense because it's useful to discuss alternatives when discussing problems. Even if they aren't a feasible drop in replacement, that doesn't mean there aren't aspects that can possibly be encouraged. Also, it may help narrow the arguments and objections to the core problems people have. For example, is factory farming undesirable because animals are confined, animals are in pain, or because animals deserve a better lifestyle, where they can exist at least somewhat like they would in nature (i.e. do animals deserve not to be tortures in ways that are not just physical)? Focusing only on factory farming may yield reforms that address symptoms, not the problem.

Inaccurately aimed or qualified criticism leads to arguments from people who may agree in principle. It's counterproductive.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#126

Post by logfromblammo »

crisnoble wrote: post #120
biofox wrote: post #7

"For more than a decade, neuroscientist Grégoire Courtine has been flying every few months from his lab at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne to another lab in Beijing, China, where he conducts research on monkeys with the aim of treating spinal-cord injuries. The commute is exhausting — on occasion he has even flown to Beijing, done experiments, and returned the same night. But it is worth it, say…

Regulatory ethics questions aside, why wouldn't he just live in China?

Probably for the same reason that I don't sleep under my desk at my workplace.

When I'm not working, I would rather be home. For some people, home is a place, and for others, home is people. Either way, if you can't move home to China, but you can move your workplace there, you will have to commute there at intervals.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#127

Post by gallerdude »

truth_sentinell wrote: post #125

I'm eager for the day to come when we can map an entire animal to a computer model -or even human-, so animals won't be necessary anymore for this kind of procedure. How many years away do you guys think we are from that dream?

When that happens, we'll have fully emulated human brains and basically everything will be solved (or destroyed).

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#128

Post by truth_sentinell »

anbende wrote: post #121
asciimo wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering that 99 percent of US meat comes from factory farms[1], there's little point in discussing other forms of farming. [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2010/12/why-free-r...

If there are ways of farming that are ethical that are already in use (the 1% in your argument), then we absolutely should discuss those. We would want to start increasing that number. It changes things considerably whether livestock can be raised ethically. If they can, we can try to do that. If they can't, then the only ethical solution is to stop raising livestock. So discussing that 1% has practical implications.

You can't raise livestock for hundreds of millions of people "ethically" -whatever that means-. That's why people industrialized the process, and on most big factories there's little human intervention.

I can't picture the day where people stop eating meat. It just won't happen, not matter what arguments you present.

The best way to go is replacing it, and the perfect postulate is lab meat, which I hope, is going to be massively produced at low cost in the next ten years. And even if it doesn't ill people, tastes the same as natural meat, you will find resistence.

So, to summarise: lab meat at lower cost than natural meat, demands plunge, billions of animals are saved every year.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#129

Post by oxide »

citricsquid wrote: post #67
Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would assume it's because monkeys are more intelligent than the animals we tend to eat; cows, chickens, sheep & pigs. Also, intentionally paralysing a creature, leaving it to live in that condition, and then performing experimental surgery/procedures on it is significantly different than slaughtering it. Whilst I appreciate the scientists mean well, and I do understand how this could benefit humanity; this sort of…

The intelligence argument is nonsense. Pigs are as intelligent as dogs. Describe the treatment of livestock (pigs, chickens, cows) but frame it as something that is happening to dogs and you'll drive hundreds of thousands of outraged meat eaters to signing a petition. The reason is cognitive dissonance, we're taught from the moment we can understand that it's okay to farm animals and very few people ever really think…

Are you saying comparing apples and oranges is the only way to effectively make your point?

Dogs and livestock are quite different. We keep them around for entirely different reasons.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#130

Post by robohamburger »

citricsquid wrote: post #67
Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would assume it's because monkeys are more intelligent than the animals we tend to eat; cows, chickens, sheep & pigs. Also, intentionally paralysing a creature, leaving it to live in that condition, and then performing experimental surgery/procedures on it is significantly different than slaughtering it. Whilst I appreciate the scientists mean well, and I do understand how this could benefit humanity; this sort of…

The intelligence argument is nonsense. Pigs are as intelligent as dogs. Describe the treatment of livestock (pigs, chickens, cows) but frame it as something that is happening to dogs and you'll drive hundreds of thousands of outraged meat eaters to signing a petition. The reason is cognitive dissonance, we're taught from the moment we can understand that it's okay to farm animals and very few people ever really think…

My wife is in vet school and when I learned all of what you describe from her I have been phasing out dairy as best as I can. Still can't kick the butter cheese and icecream though :(
Post reply on HN