Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk • Hacker News Board

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#61

Post by jobigoud » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 4:56 PM UTC

fdej wrote: post #28

popol12 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are much closer geneticaly to monkeys than to cows, I would'nt do experiments on something that has 99% genes in common with me.

The figure I've seen cited for rhesus monkeys 93%, with cows around 80%. But why are you so concerned about genetic similarity? Isn't the more important question how sentient and capable of suffering they are? If we discovered alien beings with human-like intelligence and sentience that didn't share our DNA, would you prefer experimenting on those?

Another, perhaps more pressing ethical issue, would be sentient software or emulations. They also wouldn't share DNA.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#62

Post by Balgair » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 4:57 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #31

rudolf0 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genetic similarity is definitely a poor measure, but keep in mind many (including myself) consider testing on mice highly unethical as well.

Even fruit flies share ~60%, and I guess most people agree that insects are fair game.

Yeast cells are ~25% and we make beer out of them, which is basically making them swim around in their own poop (ethanol) until it kills them.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#63

Post by Balgair » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 5:01 PM UTC

jobigoud wrote: post #13

quantisan wrote: post #2

"The problem I see with this is that they implant monkey before paralysis and can use machine learning to build a model of the monkey's unique representation for walking. Then they paralyze and show the monkey's can adapt to only using their interface in 5 days. There's no way the mapping from neural activity to stimulation is generalizable..." [1] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/5c2ljz/brain_impla...

One of my fear is an extremely big generation gap in the future when we find a transhuman-level technology that can only work if done from an early age. Exocortex interface comes to mind. Then you would have an entire generation thinking millions of times deeper, broader, and faster than the previous one, and communication mostly broken. I sort of fear this scenario because I would be on the wrong side of it.

I'm in neuro, that scenario is centuries away. You'd peobably need a clear skull first with exotic glasses we can't even begin to understand physics-wise today. We don't even know what your brain cells mostly are. Is it 10% neurons and 90% glia, or 50% neurons and 50% glia? What are glia even doing? The only data we really get on them is via stroke studies. Neuro is exciting precisely because there is so little known about the brain still.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#64

Post by return0 » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 5:02 PM UTC

quantisan wrote: post #2

"The problem I see with this is that they implant monkey before paralysis and can use machine learning to build a model of the monkey's unique representation for walking. Then they paralyze and show the monkey's can adapt to only using their interface in 5 days. There's no way the mapping from neural activity to stimulation is generalizable..." [1] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/5c2ljz/brain_impla...

There 's plasticity involved, and the problem that brain circuits continuously remap. They can be retrained though. I think they had similar problems with the BrainGate BMI many years ago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrainGate).

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#65

Post by sandworm101 » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 5:02 PM UTC

Balgair wrote: post #58

sandworm101 wrote: post #44

We have seen many such interfaces in recent years, but as I understand these techniques they all suffer the same problem. The body eventually coats the electrodes in a non-conductive layer, essentially scar tissue, and the whole thing grinds to a halt in a matter of weeks. Until that practical limitation is surmounted, it seems very wrong to treat animals in such a manner. Watching the paralyzed monkey (also the rat)…

Gliosis is a big problem for sure, and the central nervous system's scarring is not well understood at this time. Typically with recording electrodes you can either 'jiggle' them to shake off the scarring cells or pass a small amount of current between the combined electrodes to kill off the cells. These recording electrodes are typically only a few microns apart, so long range damage is a non-issue if the subject is…

The process of refreshing an electrode sounds tortuous for the subject. And your information re monkeys clawing out devices Jurassic Park-style is equally disturbing. This points to the conclusion that the efforts spent internalizing the system has less to do with benefit and more to do with preventing the animal from ending the agony.

But speaking of the electrodes, how long do they last in human subjects? Docs have been implanting various electrodes in human nerves/brains for decades and I assume a paralyzed person in a research study isn't going to rip them out. With enough current can the gliosis be overcome perpetually?

(lol, spellcheck went with 'parallelized' and 'gigolos'. That might say something about my normal writing subjects.)

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#66

Post by pvaldes » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 5:04 PM UTC

popol12 wrote: post #19

biofox wrote: post #7

"For more than a decade, neuroscientist Grégoire Courtine has been flying every few months from his lab at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne to another lab in Beijing, China, where he conducts research on monkeys with the aim of treating spinal-cord injuries. The commute is exhausting — on occasion he has even flown to Beijing, done experiments, and returned the same night. But it is worth it, say…

We are much closer geneticaly to monkeys than to cows, I would'nt do experiments on something that has 99% genes in common with me.

As long as the people saying that, would voluntarily renounce to benefit of the results of this experiment, or any experiment involving other 100% genetically identic humans, all is ok.

Cars kill much more animals each day in any case, for no reason and including lots of humans. Maybe people fairly concerned about animal pain could use their skills and time to solve this much more serious problem. Wouldn't be a great goal? You'll save much more lives in an hour than in an entire life of lab rat rescue.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#67

Post by citricsquid » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 5:06 PM UTC

Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #27

biofox wrote: post #7

"For more than a decade, neuroscientist Grégoire Courtine has been flying every few months from his lab at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne to another lab in Beijing, China, where he conducts research on monkeys with the aim of treating spinal-cord injuries. The commute is exhausting — on occasion he has even flown to Beijing, done experiments, and returned the same night. But it is worth it, say…

I would assume it's because monkeys are more intelligent than the animals we tend to eat; cows, chickens, sheep & pigs. Also, intentionally paralysing a creature, leaving it to live in that condition, and then performing experimental surgery/procedures on it is significantly different than slaughtering it. Whilst I appreciate the scientists mean well, and I do understand how this could benefit humanity; this sort of…

The intelligence argument is nonsense. Pigs are as intelligent as dogs. Describe the treatment of livestock (pigs, chickens, cows) but frame it as something that is happening to dogs and you'll drive hundreds of thousands of outraged meat eaters to signing a petition. The reason is cognitive dissonance, we're taught from the moment we can understand that it's okay to farm animals and very few people ever really think about the consequences of that. To be humane means "having or showing compassion or benevolence" which is about as far from how you can describe the treatment of livestock that you can get. To suggest that the the real problem with livestock farming is the slaughter demonstrates a clear misunderstanding of where the real problems lie, slaughter is one of the most humane parts of livestock farming.

Dairy cows spend more than half a decade being repeatedly raped and abused until they're slaughtered because their bodies have been destroyed by the milking process, and they spend that half a decade having their young snatched away from them over and over again. If having the emotional intelligence to mourn your stolen young isn't enough to justify ending the inhumane treatment then it's certainly not intelligence that humans care about.

If this research is unethical then learn about gestation crates, which immobilise pigs for months of their pregnancy.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#68

Post by Retric » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 5:07 PM UTC

Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #27

biofox wrote: post #7

"For more than a decade, neuroscientist Grégoire Courtine has been flying every few months from his lab at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne to another lab in Beijing, China, where he conducts research on monkeys with the aim of treating spinal-cord injuries. The commute is exhausting — on occasion he has even flown to Beijing, done experiments, and returned the same night. But it is worth it, say…

I would assume it's because monkeys are more intelligent than the animals we tend to eat; cows, chickens, sheep & pigs. Also, intentionally paralysing a creature, leaving it to live in that condition, and then performing experimental surgery/procedures on it is significantly different than slaughtering it. Whilst I appreciate the scientists mean well, and I do understand how this could benefit humanity; this sort of…

Pigs are actually really intelligent as in higher than dogs. So, it really depends on the type of money.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#69

Post by jobigoud » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 5:09 PM UTC

Balgair wrote: post #63

jobigoud wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my fear is an extremely big generation gap in the future when we find a transhuman-level technology that can only work if done from an early age. Exocortex interface comes to mind. Then you would have an entire generation thinking millions of times deeper, broader, and faster than the previous one, and communication mostly broken. I sort of fear this scenario because I would be on the wrong side of it.

I'm in neuro, that scenario is centuries away. You'd peobably need a clear skull first with exotic glasses we can't even begin to understand physics-wise today. We don't even know what your brain cells mostly are. Is it 10% neurons and 90% glia, or 50% neurons and 50% glia? What are glia even doing? The only data we really get on them is via stroke studies. Neuro is exciting precisely because there is so little known…

But we don't really need to understand something to create technology leveraging it. And we are just getting started with deep learning. And our computers are extremely slow and have tiny storage compared to what they will be.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#70

Post by sandworm101 » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 5:19 PM UTC

citricsquid wrote: post #67

Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would assume it's because monkeys are more intelligent than the animals we tend to eat; cows, chickens, sheep & pigs. Also, intentionally paralysing a creature, leaving it to live in that condition, and then performing experimental surgery/procedures on it is significantly different than slaughtering it. Whilst I appreciate the scientists mean well, and I do understand how this could benefit humanity; this sort of…

The intelligence argument is nonsense. Pigs are as intelligent as dogs. Describe the treatment of livestock (pigs, chickens, cows) but frame it as something that is happening to dogs and you'll drive hundreds of thousands of outraged meat eaters to signing a petition. The reason is cognitive dissonance, we're taught from the moment we can understand that it's okay to farm animals and very few people ever really think…

The desire to protect dogs/cats/horses over other animals isn't cognitive dissonance. Our relationship to certain species goes deeper than intellectual debates. We have evolved dogs from wolves, and so to have we evolved alongside them, to see value beyond meat. We have an instinct that protects dogs and cats because they are more valuable than food. They gather and protect our food. Pigs may be more intelligent, but they don't guard our doors at night and so we lack the same protective instincts. This isn't simple cognitive dissonance, but dissonance between modern intellectual values re intelligence and evolved survival instincts.