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Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

nature.com

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Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#81

Post by biofox »

Balgair wrote: post #58
sandworm101 wrote: post #44

We have seen many such interfaces in recent years, but as I understand these techniques they all suffer the same problem. The body eventually coats the electrodes in a non-conductive layer, essentially scar tissue, and the whole thing grinds to a halt in a matter of weeks. Until that practical limitation is surmounted, it seems very wrong to treat animals in such a manner. Watching the paralyzed monkey (also the rat)…

Gliosis is a big problem for sure, and the central nervous system's scarring is not well understood at this time. Typically with recording electrodes you can either 'jiggle' them to shake off the scarring cells or pass a small amount of current between the combined electrodes to kill off the cells. These recording electrodes are typically only a few microns apart, so long range damage is a non-issue if the subject is…

See the paper in my other reply to the parent. Admittedly, it only solves the technical problems (and only in mice so far), but it's a big step forward.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#82

Post by nostromo »

citricsquid wrote: post #67
Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would assume it's because monkeys are more intelligent than the animals we tend to eat; cows, chickens, sheep & pigs. Also, intentionally paralysing a creature, leaving it to live in that condition, and then performing experimental surgery/procedures on it is significantly different than slaughtering it. Whilst I appreciate the scientists mean well, and I do understand how this could benefit humanity; this sort of…

The intelligence argument is nonsense. Pigs are as intelligent as dogs. Describe the treatment of livestock (pigs, chickens, cows) but frame it as something that is happening to dogs and you'll drive hundreds of thousands of outraged meat eaters to signing a petition. The reason is cognitive dissonance, we're taught from the moment we can understand that it's okay to farm animals and very few people ever really think…

We're talking about monkeys here - humanity's closest relatives.

If we want AI to treat us well in the far future, we should treat monkeys and apes with dignity and respect today.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#83

Post by tim333 »

bognition wrote: post #24

This is absolutely fantastic and its a great step in the right direction but we are still years if not decades away from being able to circumvent spinal lesions in humans. One of the major problems with human spinal lesions is the loss of control of the trunk of the body (ie the core). Humans have dozens of muscle groups that control balance and posture through minute movements. Without fine grain control over these…

>we are still years if not decades away from being able to circumvent spinal lesions in humans.

On the other hand it's quite possible that if you implanted the same equipment into humans right now that it could work with a bit of tweaking. It's kind of hard to say till someone tries it.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#84

Post by fsloth »

nihonde wrote: post #80
citricsquid wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intelligence argument is nonsense. Pigs are as intelligent as dogs. Describe the treatment of livestock (pigs, chickens, cows) but frame it as something that is happening to dogs and you'll drive hundreds of thousands of outraged meat eaters to signing a petition. The reason is cognitive dissonance, we're taught from the moment we can understand that it's okay to farm animals and very few people ever really think…

In that case, why not start with human subjects?

Economic reasons? Humans are worth a lot more than monkeys. I know it's a cruel reason and hardly the only one.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#85

Post by lostlogin »

nihonde wrote: post #80
citricsquid wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intelligence argument is nonsense. Pigs are as intelligent as dogs. Describe the treatment of livestock (pigs, chickens, cows) but frame it as something that is happening to dogs and you'll drive hundreds of thousands of outraged meat eaters to signing a petition. The reason is cognitive dissonance, we're taught from the moment we can understand that it's okay to farm animals and very few people ever really think…

In that case, why not start with human subjects?

The times that has been done have raised complicated ethical questions beyond the obvious. Many have refused to use the data gathered despite some of the it being potentially helpful as the use of the 'tainted' data gives a validity to the method of gathering. http://bioethics.as.nyu.edu/docs/IO/30171/Steinberg.HumanRes...

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#86

Post by lostlogin »

nostromo wrote: post #82
citricsquid wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intelligence argument is nonsense. Pigs are as intelligent as dogs. Describe the treatment of livestock (pigs, chickens, cows) but frame it as something that is happening to dogs and you'll drive hundreds of thousands of outraged meat eaters to signing a petition. The reason is cognitive dissonance, we're taught from the moment we can understand that it's okay to farm animals and very few people ever really think…

We're talking about monkeys here - humanity's closest relatives. If we want AI to treat us well in the far future, we should treat monkeys and apes with dignity and respect today.

Why just them though? We don't treat humans that well a lot of the time, and if AI looked to us for an example, things are going to be rough.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#88

Post by vblord »

TeeWEE wrote: post #4

I cant help to feel sad for the monkey. I'm not sure this is the way research should be done. Why not try this on a smaller scale animal first before doing it on a monkey? Also you don"t need to cut the spinal cord todo data analysis.

Just curious what you would think if they cloned a monkey and then did the operation to the cloned monkey? Would you still feel sad for the monkey if you knew that the only reason it existed was for this one purpose?

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#89

Post by nostromo »

lostlogin wrote: post #86
nostromo wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about monkeys here - humanity's closest relatives. If we want AI to treat us well in the far future, we should treat monkeys and apes with dignity and respect today.

Why just them though? We don't treat humans that well a lot of the time, and if AI looked to us for an example, things are going to be rough.

I see it as a continuum not as a black and white situation. The higher an animal is on the Encephalization quotient, the more respect they deserve.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encephalization_quotient

This is why I think it's ok to swat a mosquito that's being annoying, but not to euthanize a monkey that's being annoying.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#90

Post by lostlogin »

sandworm101 wrote: post #70
citricsquid wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intelligence argument is nonsense. Pigs are as intelligent as dogs. Describe the treatment of livestock (pigs, chickens, cows) but frame it as something that is happening to dogs and you'll drive hundreds of thousands of outraged meat eaters to signing a petition. The reason is cognitive dissonance, we're taught from the moment we can understand that it's okay to farm animals and very few people ever really think…

The desire to protect dogs/cats/horses over other animals isn't cognitive dissonance. Our relationship to certain species goes deeper than intellectual debates. We have evolved dogs from wolves, and so to have we evolved alongside them, to see value beyond meat. We have an instinct that protects dogs and cats because they are more valuable than food. They gather and protect our food. Pigs may be more intelligent, but…

I wonder if this is slowly changing as values change. In NZ there is a growing movement to eradicate pests to help protect native species. Cats fall on the wrong side of this goal. There have been public calls by high profile individuals to eradicate cats. Maybe someday birds will be seen to greater value than cats down here.

http://nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10...

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