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Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#51

Post by dep_b »

YorickPeterse wrote: post #41
dep_b wrote: post #11

It's not a lack of crime that causes it but a lack of solved crimes. Violent crimes for example, if a violent crime gets reported in Germany they solve the crime in 80% of the cases but in Holland just 40%. People organise neighbourhood watch WhatsApp groups to prevent crime instead of relying on the police to fix things. Within ten years these groups will probably grow into armed and organised right-wing groups. And…

Dutch citizen here, this is bullshit. Neighbourhood watches using WhatsApp has nothing to do with a lack of police force, it's simply an "add-on" so neighbours can report suspicious behaviour to others. > Within ten years these groups will probably grow into armed and organised right-wing groups. You miss the part where we have very strict gun ownership rules, and very few have guns. > Thanks for the down votes witho…

> Neighbourhood watches using WhatsApp has nothing to do with a lack of police force,

True, Germany has about the same amount of police force per capita. It's just spent better.

> it's simply an "add-on" so neighbours can report suspicious behaviour to others.

Why this worries me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

> None of this proves that The Netherlands is the a "dangerous" country

It's also never implied by me.

> where citizens take matters into their own hands

They just need to police themselves a bit where the government fails, right?

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#52

Post by akerro »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #39
msvalkon wrote: post #15

> Frans Carbo, the prison guards' representative from the FNV union, says his members are "angry and a little bit depressed". Young people don't want to join the prison service he adds "because there is no future in it any more - you never know when your prison will be closed". Well this truly sounds abhorrent.

Actually no, it sounds utopian - closing prisons because crime is low is a good thing.

I remember reading somewhere that Iceland had to close prisons due to lack of prisoners. They get a few convicts per year and have to send them abroad to prisons abroad.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#53

Post by OliverJones »

This reduction in prison population is, at root, a consequence of ending drug prohibition. In the US, state voters are working on this in places like Colorado, Washington, and now my home state, Massachusetts. So far, voters have had to do it. Legislatures can't, yet, do it, because the vested special interests in continuing prohibition are too strong.

I'm sure somebody can speak for California; I don't know much about the situation there.

The Washington cannabis-legalization model is based on a juridical argument: it's crazy to kick young people to the curb, take away their scholarships, and throw them in jail, for pot smoking, even though smoking pot is harmful. It wastes time and distracts the police from dealing with worse stuff like "human trafficking" (kidnapping teens and compelling them to work in the sex trade) and domestic violence.

The Colorado / Massachusetts model is based on a recreational argument. Cannabis is safer and less harmful than alcohol. People will use substances for fun. The less harmful those substances are, the better.

Both models involve regulation: purity, labeling, "carding" kids to keep them away from the stuff. Both involve taxation.

The recreational model is harder to use when arguing to end the prohibition of other drugs. Heroin and cocaine are, in fact, safer than alcohol when criminal gangs aren't involved in delivering them to users. The statistics come from experiments in various places where clinical decriminalization has been tried. But that's a very hard argument to make. The juridical argument is easier to use to convince people.

Both models cut down on police work, court work, and prison populations. As prohibition gradually contracts, lots of people will find themselves out of work: El Chapo and his cartel gangs, the Crips and Bloods, local gangs like the Insane Unknowns (who controlled the neighborhood where I lived as a graduate student on the south side of Chicago), police, probation workers, prison workers, and so forth.

People resist being thrown out of work, so eliminating prohibition will take another generation. People with access to legislatures (police, court, prison people) will resist there. The other side will fight it in the streets. But it will happen.

More info? Chasing the Scream, by Johann Hari. http://www.worldcat.org/title/chasing-the-scream-the-first-a...

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#54

Post by ryanlol »

dep_b wrote: post #51
YorickPeterse wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dutch citizen here, this is bullshit. Neighbourhood watches using WhatsApp has nothing to do with a lack of police force, it's simply an "add-on" so neighbours can report suspicious behaviour to others. > Within ten years these groups will probably grow into armed and organised right-wing groups. You miss the part where we have very strict gun ownership rules, and very few have guns. > Thanks for the down votes witho…

> Neighbourhood watches using WhatsApp has nothing to do with a lack of police force, True, Germany has about the same amount of police force per capita. It's just spent better. > it's simply an "add-on" so neighbours can report suspicious behaviour to others. Why this worries me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin > None of this proves that The Netherlands is the a "dangerous" country It's also…

>Why this worries me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

What's worrying about that? The neighbourhood watchman was violently attacked and successfully defended himself.

That particular incident seems to demonstrate that the neighbourhood watch existed for a reason.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#55

Post by dep_b »

neogenix wrote: post #18
dep_b wrote: post #11

It's not a lack of crime that causes it but a lack of solved crimes. Violent crimes for example, if a violent crime gets reported in Germany they solve the crime in 80% of the cases but in Holland just 40%. People organise neighbourhood watch WhatsApp groups to prevent crime instead of relying on the police to fix things. Within ten years these groups will probably grow into armed and organised right-wing groups. And…

Any data to back that up? I've lived all my live in Amsterdam and this is the first time I've heard of this. It sounds made up.

https://decorrespondent.nl/2038/opheldering-verzocht-acht-op...

> We blijven nog even in Münster en Utrecht. Vooral bij geweldscriminaliteit is het contrast pijnlijk: een Nederlandse opheldering van 37 procent tegen een Duitse van 82 procent.

"A bit more about Münster and Utrecht (1). The contrast is especially painful when we compare violent crimes: the Dutch solve 37% while the Germans solve 82%"

Explain that to somebody that got beat up in the streets after a night out for no reason at all. That the police is not doing anything at all to solve it.

1) two cities that are roughly the same size and demographic, so more comparable

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#56

Post by dep_b »

martijn_himself wrote: post #19

Dutch national here. I'm pretty sure this is largely due to lenient prison sentences, no prison sentences at all for minor offences, and unsolved crimes. The cold-blooded convicted killer of the frontrunner in the Dutch elections in 2002 was released after 12 years, something which is unthinkable in other countries.

In Germany they solve a lot more cases without using more police force. I don't care about short sentences or helping prisoners after they went to prison, that's probably a good thing. But they need to be arrested and convicted first if they do something, not get away with it.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#57

Post by askmike »

dep_b wrote: post #48
askmike wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in the Netherlands for over 20 years in 5 different cities (in a small town like Geldermalsen as well as Amsterdam) and I have never experienced anything like that.. In all the places I've lived I (and everyone around me) always felt extremely safe. ----- EDIT: those are some weird sources: - first link is a dutch website called "Germany institute". It doesn't say anything about 40% non solvency (or 80% so…

For example: https://decorrespondent.nl/2038/opheldering-verzocht-acht-op... But why don't you post some counter information? Or inform yourself while not finding any information that supports your opinion at all. > second link talks about how neighbourhood watches have grown five fold, to a whapping 661 watches over 17 million people. You can try to ridicule it but it's not going to change the fact that it's getting…

What about this from the US Overseas Security Advisory Council (HN is US focussed, why don't we use US based/english sources?):

https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=174...

> Police response and capabilities are comparable to other Western European countries. Professionalism and competence are high, and corruption and tolerance of corruption are low.

> Crime Rating: Low

> Although rare, violent crime does happen

> travel by road is relatively safe in comparison to some other European countries

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#58

Post by gpvos »

charlesdm wrote: post #50
CRidge wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't sound unthinkable in other countries. I'm from Norway, where the maximum prison sentence is 21 years, with a third of that often being deducted for good behavior, leaving 14 years.

Should a killer get released after 14 years though, after "good behavior"? If we're talking about premeditated murder, you can be pretty sure you're dealing with an individual who doesn't have good behavior. Second, 14 (or 21) years for murder, really? A life isn't worth a lot anymore these days..

In the Netherlands, 20 years (with early release after 13-14 years) used to be the maximum sentence, apart from life sentence, which actually used to be really for life. Parole is possible, but seldom used; release for good behaviour (after a certain minimum number of years) was not possible at all. The European Court for Human Rights actually recently forced us to implement an early release possibility. I think a few years ago we also got a 30 year option (with early release after 20), because judges weren't willing to impose a life sentence due to the aforementioned reason.

Also, 14/21 years is about 20-25% of one's life. I think that's quite a lot, really.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#59

Post by ordinary »

charlesdm wrote: post #50
CRidge wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't sound unthinkable in other countries. I'm from Norway, where the maximum prison sentence is 21 years, with a third of that often being deducted for good behavior, leaving 14 years.

Should a killer get released after 14 years though, after "good behavior"? If we're talking about premeditated murder, you can be pretty sure you're dealing with an individual who doesn't have good behavior. Second, 14 (or 21) years for murder, really? A life isn't worth a lot anymore these days..

Prison sentences in the Netherlands for aren't imposed as punishment alone, not even mostly. They are primarily tools of prevention (including the prevention of recidivism). If a convicted criminal is no longer considered to be a threat to society what's the point of keeping them locked up? If longer sentences (longer than whatever they are) have not shown to reduce the crime rate through deterrent, why impose them?

Prisons cost money.

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