Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners • Hacker News Board

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#31

Post by dep_b » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 11:28 AM UTC

mcv wrote: post #24

neogenix wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any data to back that up? I've lived all my live in Amsterdam and this is the first time I've heard of this. It sounds made up.

I notice that most of the people who disagree live in Amsterdam. Maybe it's different in other cities. Or in more rural areas.

Those groups are a big trend in places with more tight-knit communities. Amsterdam is quite individualistic and in some ways the city got cleaned up quite a bit compared to the 80s when it was full of heroin junkies. I think the free heroin plan is one of the best things ever.

In rural areas people experience more crime than before and the police is not that willing to solve cases.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#32

Post by thijsc » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 11:28 AM UTC

dep_b wrote: post #11

It's not a lack of crime that causes it but a lack of solved crimes. Violent crimes for example, if a violent crime gets reported in Germany they solve the crime in 80% of the cases but in Holland just 40%. People organise neighbourhood watch WhatsApp groups to prevent crime instead of relying on the police to fix things. Within ten years these groups will probably grow into armed and organised right-wing groups. And…

It's not that your sources are nonsense, you're just drawing an unfounded conclusion from them.

The Whatsapp patrol described in the article is completely different from the goon squad you're implying it is. It's mainly an early detection system, people would call the police as soon as they see something happening.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#33

Post by akvadrako » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 11:31 AM UTC

mcv wrote: post #24

neogenix wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any data to back that up? I've lived all my live in Amsterdam and this is the first time I've heard of this. It sounds made up.

I notice that most of the people who disagree live in Amsterdam. Maybe it's different in other cities. Or in more rural areas.

Most Dutch people I've met consider Amsterdam to be one of the most dangerous places in the country and prefer to raise kids in more suburban setting. The statistics do say a few other cities are more dangerous, but overall Amsterdam is representative.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#34

Post by spiderfarmer » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 11:33 AM UTC

awjr wrote: post #22

The counter argument as to why there seem to be a lack of prisoners is under-resourcing the police. However the whole judicial system within the Netherlands appears to take a holistic approach to people, trying to help people get their lives back on track. Yes some people do need locking up, but there seems to be a recognition that locking up an addict for theft doesn't solve the long-term issue. Teaching them to man…

It's a mix of having a lot of prisons, short sentences and low crime rates.

A lot of people are advocating for more police and longer sentences, but I don't see why. If you look at the numbers, the system is working.

The Police manpower is on par with the UK: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/...

The amount of prisoners / 100.000 inhabitants is on par with Germany: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/...

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#35

Post by dep_b » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 11:35 AM UTC

akvadrako wrote: post #28

dep_b wrote: post #11

It's not a lack of crime that causes it but a lack of solved crimes. Violent crimes for example, if a violent crime gets reported in Germany they solve the crime in 80% of the cases but in Holland just 40%. People organise neighbourhood watch WhatsApp groups to prevent crime instead of relying on the police to fix things. Within ten years these groups will probably grow into armed and organised right-wing groups. And…

I would down vote you if I could, because you are being very disingenuous. I have never lived anywhere as safe as Holland, backed up both by statistics and the general atmosphere. Just to be clear, what percentage of neighbourhood's have WhatApp patrols? I bet it's under 0.1%. If you feel unsafe in Holland you should be terrified to live in the US: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Netherlands...

Maybe it would be a good moment to reflect on yourself and analyse why the things I say make you angry. It's all backed up by data and facts. If you would take time to read the source (sorry if you can't read Dutch: the registered number of groups was 661, which is 40% of all municipalities) you wouldn't respond like that. The NRC is a very reliable (but a bit progressive liberal) newspaper.

I don't care about the US. This story is about The Netherlands and the "miracle" of empty prisons. I don't say you shouldn't feel safe, but I'm telling that things don't seem to be improving at least.

Unless you live in Amsterdam?

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#36

Post by spiderfarmer » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 11:35 AM UTC

diskooo wrote: post #20

Yeah, no wonder - you rape somebody here and you have to clean the streets for a week. If you're unlucky that is. Police officers are too busy with mobile speed controls. They don't (dare) arrest anybody who's foul-mouthing them in their face. They have become laughing stock. Crime sentences (duration) are deplorable. Solved crime rates are way too low.

Do you have any solved crime rate statistics, when compared to other countries?

The Police manpower is on par with the UK. And the amount of prisoners / 100.000 inhabitants is on par with Germany. See sources in my other comment.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#37

Post by Cthulhu_ » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 11:35 AM UTC

martijn_himself wrote: post #19

Dutch national here. I'm pretty sure this is largely due to lenient prison sentences, no prison sentences at all for minor offences, and unsolved crimes. The cold-blooded convicted killer of the frontrunner in the Dutch elections in 2002 was released after 12 years, something which is unthinkable in other countries.

The main thing is that there's a difference in perspective. In e.g. the US legal system, prison time is punishment, a form of vengeance, of paying your debt to society. (and nowadays, a means to get a large slave labor force). In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#38

Post by mcv » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 11:36 AM UTC

By sheer coincidence, we had a short vacation to Veenhuizen last weekend. Visited the prison museum, drove past several other prisons (I believe the village has been home to about 5 different prisons over the years). Originally, the layout of the village had the prisons (or other correctional facilities, before they turned it into a prison colony) at the center, and the houses of the guards around it. All the houses have inspiring words on the facade about how good it is to work and help people, and the sizes and designs of the houses were according to a strict hierarchy among the employees. I believe only people above a certain rank were allowed to have some types of tree in their garden.

Extremely orderly, all of it. Nowadays it's far more pragmatic and less restrictive of course, but there are still two prisons in active use.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#39

Post by Cthulhu_ » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 11:36 AM UTC

msvalkon wrote: post #15

> Frans Carbo, the prison guards' representative from the FNV union, says his members are "angry and a little bit depressed". Young people don't want to join the prison service he adds "because there is no future in it any more - you never know when your prison will be closed". Well this truly sounds abhorrent.

Actually no, it sounds utopian - closing prisons because crime is low is a good thing.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#40

Post by martijn_himself » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 11:38 AM UTC

CRidge wrote: post #27

martijn_himself wrote: post #19

Dutch national here. I'm pretty sure this is largely due to lenient prison sentences, no prison sentences at all for minor offences, and unsolved crimes. The cold-blooded convicted killer of the frontrunner in the Dutch elections in 2002 was released after 12 years, something which is unthinkable in other countries.

This doesn't sound unthinkable in other countries. I'm from Norway, where the maximum prison sentence is 21 years, with a third of that often being deducted for good behavior, leaving 14 years.

Agreed! That will probably generate a lot of debate when Breivik comes up for release.