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Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

nytimes.com

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Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#221

Post by x1798DE »

jwr wrote: post #189

Safe or not for smokers, non-smokers should certainly not have to inhale the same substances that smokers do. I find it alarming that e-cigarette marketing managed to convince smokers that what gets exhaled is just "water vapor", and thus they can now smoke anywhere they want.

I don't understand. In my experience these vaporizers don't have any sort of smoke that lingers around and there is no unpleasant sensation associated with breathing around ecigarette users like there is with tobacco. Even if there is more than water vapor in there, I feel like it's very unlikely that I'd be getting any sort of significant dose from their exhalations, so why should I care if they smoke inside?

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#222

Post by nialo »

jdietrich wrote: post #175
nialo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For whatever little it's worth, and appologies if you knew this already: Kanthal wire should be generally more 'inert' than stainless at high temperatures. The aluminum in Kanthal forms a tougher and more temperature resistant oxide layer than the nickel in typical stainless steel. (I actually used Kanthal wire sold for DIY vaping things professionally at one point, in a ~1200C heater in vacuum. It's not inert enough…

The metal content of e-cigarette vapour has been analysed; even for relatively crude first-generation devices, the metal content is well within established safe exposure limits. Stainless steel coils facilitate temperature-controlled vaporisation, which is a crucial advance in harm reduction. Controlling the temperature of vaporisation significantly reduces the production of aldehydes and aromatic hydrocarbons, which…

do you know anything about the wire temperature in these things? I looked at both links and didn't see any numbers outside the paywall. Another comment mentions a vapor temperature of Stainless or Kanthal at 500C or something should indeed be quite inert, it's just not that hot.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#223

Post by brokenmachine »

sophacles wrote: post #202
frakr wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also provides a cotton candy flavored gateway into an addictive habit.

Do you also favor coffee demonization commercials being started? Anti-cola campaigns? etc?

Which addictive toxic drug are you suggesting coffee is a candy-flavored gateway to?

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#224

Post by brokenmachine »

nyir wrote: post #104
NTripleOne wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is any potential productivity benefits are usually shut down at the employer level - I've never seen an employer (specifically office environment) that allows vaping in the workplace. My employer requires people to clock out for a smoke break and go outside anyway, so to get the next hit people have to go break momentum away from their desk for a while - and that'd probably be quite frequently too; from m…

Well for anecdotal evidence we've got two people with (multiple) vapers in our office and they totally use them at their desk. Only annoying bit is the permanent noise of using them. It seems less distracting overall to me than people running around for smoke breaks all the time.

I would personally be very concerned about the unknown secondhand vaping effects of someone doing it in close proximity to me at work.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#225

Post by evincarofautumn »

CoryG89 wrote: post #219
evincarofautumn wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I was being unclear. I was speaking only in terms of addictive potential and difficulty of quitting. MAOIs in cigarettes make them more addictive than e-cigs (nicotine alone) as the different action of other opiates makes them more addictive than mitragynine.

I see. I wasn't aware of the MAOIs in tobacco. Though I wasn't able to find a good source on how much they might contribute to the addiction (lots of questions about it around the web though). Do you happen to know of credible sources or studies which have looked at this?

Dunno about credible, but here’s one rat study with a lot of citations, and I think it’s where I first read about it: http://jneurosci.org/content/25/38/8593.full

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#226

Post by brokenmachine »

gozur88 wrote: post #198
awinder wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I remember correctly, cold turkey has worse rates for initial quitting but the lowest rates of people returning to smoking for those who "made it"

Cold turkey is how my dad did it after 40 years of 2 packs a day, unfiltered. He went through a couple weeks of hell, but as far as I know he hasn't smoked in 21 years.

I have worked with quite a few elderly people, and I've heard many stories of people just quitting cold turkey after many years of smoking, as soon as the catastrophic health effects became common knowledge.

I think the older generation is just generally more accepting of discomfort than todays cream-puffs.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#227

Post by pixel_fcker »

Symbiote wrote: post #164
cr0sh wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if people would still be annoyed if it didn't produce a cloud? To me, it seems like many people have this weird "ick" about natural biological functions. Some are understandable - like body waste, and sneezing/coughing that could spread contagions. Regular smoking I can understand from the standpoint that it smells bad. But vape clouds typically smell good. But they are visible. So people are reminded of "ic…

Vape clouds smell awful. Like all the artificial flavourings I dislike, applied the way a 13 year old boy applies deodourant. If it's rude to spray perfume or eat smelly food, then it's also rude to vape.

No-one is saying it's not rude. What we're asking is whether it should be illegal. And your own comparisons suggest that it shouldn't be.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#228

Post by oxide »

rfrank wrote: post #180
SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mark up for juice at most vape stores is obscene, yet still manages to be cheaper than regular cigarettes. $15 for 30 mL at my local store, that lasts me on average 15 days. So it's still roughly half the price for a half pack a day smoker and 1/4 of the price for a pack a day smoker (assuming a very generous $5 a pack). If you mix your own juice you're approaching savings that are better on an order of magnitude…

it's crazy how expensive some juices are, especially when a lot are pretty simple flavor profiles with lots of sweeteners and colorings added in. once i found some diy recipes that i enjoyed, i made a pair of 120ml, and the cost savings from those two bottles alone covered all the ingredients and equipment (beakers, stirring rods, scale, bottles, etc). diy is especially worthwhile if your device guzzles juice like my…

I'm a cheap bastard, so I just buy Chinese liquid. 50ml for 11 bucks.

If you're buying domestic juice you pay a premium for nothing special, from what I can tell. Also, the chances of it being made in a proper factory are basically nil. It's often someone else's DIY garage juice at a 10000% markup.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#229

Post by rfrank »

oxide wrote: post #228
rfrank wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's crazy how expensive some juices are, especially when a lot are pretty simple flavor profiles with lots of sweeteners and colorings added in. once i found some diy recipes that i enjoyed, i made a pair of 120ml, and the cost savings from those two bottles alone covered all the ingredients and equipment (beakers, stirring rods, scale, bottles, etc). diy is especially worthwhile if your device guzzles juice like my…

I'm a cheap bastard, so I just buy Chinese liquid. 50ml for 11 bucks. If you're buying domestic juice you pay a premium for nothing special, from what I can tell. Also, the chances of it being made in a proper factory are basically nil. It's often someone else's DIY garage juice at a 10000% markup.

Yeah, I'd agree on the markup part for sure. From my experience the quality difference between "premium" and cheap juice is small but noticeable. These days I only buy juicse with flavors that are tough to work with, coffee and chocolate in particular.

I haven't kept up with the new FDA guidelines since starting DIY about a year ago, but from what I remember a lot of the little garage brands are going to be in trouble. My buddy used to work at Apollo out in Concord and I know they take their juice seriously. I think it's shitty, but it's not because the line is dirty haha. Molecule Labs out in Benicia has a pretty cool facility as well.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#230

Post by brokenmachine »

syshum wrote: post #208
Synaesthesia wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no problem with taxes on harmful products like tobacco and alcohol since they are a harm to society and a burden on society.

That is a slippery slope, if you want to talk about products or activities that "harm society" Further then you have to define what "harm" it is doing. I also suspect part of that "harm" you talk about is Costs associated with healthcare that is paid for by the taxpayer, meaning you likely support government run socialized health services. I do not.

Are you seriously requesting an explanation of what harm cigarettes are doing to society?

I suggest you have a trip to to a respiratory ward sometime.

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