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Intel driven MacBook Pros have secondary ARM processor for Touch ID and security

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Re: Intel driven MacBook Pros have secondary ARM processor for Touch ID and security

#121

Post by visarga »

eropple wrote: post #64
krastanov wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have a point though. Why would there be any software that controls the LED? Is it not more secure to have it hooked up directly to the camera power line and turn them both on and off inseparably?

I write a piece of malware that pops the camera on long enough to snap a single frame and then turn back off. The LED blinks, quite possibly too fast for you to notice. OTOH, you can delay the LED and have it very noticeably on for a second or two when it's software-controlled.

An attacker could piggyback on user initiated sessions of video camera use. After the user closes the connection, it could immediately trigger an extra 0.1s session that would go unnoticed because of the proximity with the user intended session.

Re: Intel driven MacBook Pros have secondary ARM processor for Touch ID and security

#122

Post by visarga »

marklyon wrote: post #92
ttul wrote: post #79

I think it's a pity that the Touch Bar was not designed with a dedicated area that can only be rendered by the T1 processor directly. If that were the case, then network services could communicate directly with the user via the Touch Bar, authenticating themselves with cryptography that cannot be broken by anything running on the main system processor. This would have provided a truly trusted mechanism for apps to co…

But that would complicate using it as a screen for displaying ads.

AdBlock problem solved! Just get everyone to use keyboards that have dedicated ad screens embedded inside.

Re: Intel driven MacBook Pros have secondary ARM processor for Touch ID and security

#123

Post by beedogs »

zanethomas wrote: post #95
fowlerpower wrote: post #10

The one thing I will say is even though Apple's software quality lately has taken a hit. Their commitment to security has only gotten stronger. The secure enclave, hardware level security, all of the things that came up with the FBI request have become a self serving prophecy for them. I applaud them for this and it looks like the MacBook Pro is going to be one of the most secure laptops around. Nothing is perfect of…

I have a nagging suspicion that Apple will eventually lock the hardware and OS down to the point where their computers will only run software delivered through the app store.

I doubt the big players like Avid and Adobe will allow them to do that. Either that, or they'll no longer develop for MacOS.

Re: Intel driven MacBook Pros have secondary ARM processor for Touch ID and security

#124

Post by amake »

webrender wrote: post #120
jfoster wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It certainly seems like they want to move in that direction, but it's critical that they retain the developer segment. It'll be game over for them if developers are unable to be productive on a Mac. There's likely a way to make both of these things happen, to some degree. For instance, they could start with just locking Macs to the app store as a default that is changeable. (similar to how Android is locked down)

This is already in place - by default macOS does not allow apps to be installed which do not include a signed Apple developer ID. The setting can be turned off in System Preferences.

As of Sierra this can not be disabled in System Preferences, though there are workarounds.

Re: Intel driven MacBook Pros have secondary ARM processor for Touch ID and security

#125

Post by out_of_protocol »

eropple wrote: post #72
krastanov wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point, but then why not implement the delay in immutable (and trivial and cheap) hardware? Is this not both simpler and more secure?

I guess, yeah, you could do it in hardware. But I don't think, then, it ends up being directly connected to the power feed for the camera itself, yeah? You start creating false-status cases. (This is speculation; I am not an electronics wizard.)

One word: capacitor. Seriously, solved case for many many decades

Re: Intel driven MacBook Pros have secondary ARM processor for Touch ID and security

#127

Post by cormacrelf »

GuiA wrote: post #70
vigilant wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what if I turn on the camera for a tenth of a second, take a picture, and turn it off. You won't notice the LED being on for a tenth of a second. Software makes it easier to prevent such things.

Just wrote a test app on macOS that initializes the camera, gets the first video frame, and turns it off. You definitely notice the bright green LED being on for a split second.

Source code?

Re: Intel driven MacBook Pros have secondary ARM processor for Touch ID and security

#128

Post by makomk »

StringyBob wrote: post #63
userbinator wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laptops have what is known as an "embedded controller" to handle peripherals like keyboard/touchpad, power management, and fan control. Most of them seem to be low-power 8/16-bit MCUs like 8051 and H8S, but I wouldn't be surprised if newer ones use ARM too. ...and don't forget Intel ME, which is not ARM but another processor in the system.

System-on-chips (most big chips these days) are so complex they usually have the same thing one level deeper: On chip embedded controllers, often an mcu. You might find that 'one arm chip' has many independent arm cpu cores carrying out different functions mostly completely hidden from end user behind firmware or rom

Amusingly enough, the embedded controller on some of the newer Allwinner ARM SoCs is apparently OpenRISC of all things. Guess it saved them some licensing fees.

Re: Intel driven MacBook Pros have secondary ARM processor for Touch ID and security

#129

Post by Zoon »

johncolanduoni wrote: post #80
krastanov wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the laptops you describe do not have secure enclave. If I want that level of security on Linux what can I do?

What would the enclave do for you if you're running an OS that doesn't support Apple Pay or Touch ID?

It is used for the camera too.

Re: Intel driven MacBook Pros have secondary ARM processor for Touch ID and security

#130

Post by justincormack »

krastanov wrote: post #66
cm3 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that iSight and Facetime HD cameras required drivers and firmware to get running under Linux, I would be positively surprised if the new camera is easier to set up, meaning I don't think it works right now. Even the existing camera support isn't 100%, with features like suspend/resume being flaky, all due to it being reverse engineered. That said, the options for developer laptops has shifted in favor of genera…

Sure, but the laptops you describe do not have secure enclave. If I want that level of security on Linux what can I do?

Build your own? Its an ARM chip running a relative of SEL4. Would be an interesting project.
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