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Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

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Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#81

Post by jacquesm »

Maktab wrote: post #62
dpatru wrote: post #57

I don't have a lot of sympathy for the argument that the video was released without context that would justify the American military action. If the American military had wanted context, they should have released the video themselves with additional context. Instead, the American military suppressed the video. They should not complain that the video is now being released without context. Americans are in Iraq as forei…

Aside from the larger issue being debated here, I think you're guilty of operating under an outdated assumption. The US forces in Iraq have not been 'foreign occupiers' for quite some time. They are there at the will of the democratically elected Iraqi government in a deployment sanctioned by the UN Security Council. It should be possible to acknowledge this fact even while disagreeing with the presence of US forces…

> They are there at the will of the democratically elected Iraqi government in a deployment sanctioned by the UN Security Council.

Please. The alternative is a total power vacuum, you can't really say that they're there because the locals invited them in.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#82

Post by confuzatron »

jacquesm wrote: post #80
sunchild wrote: post #47

"There’s no easy way to kill somebody. You don’t just take somebody’s life and then go on about your business for the rest of the day. That stays with you. And cracking jokes is a way of pushing that stuff down. That’s why so many soldiers come back home and they’re no longer in the situations where they have other things to think about or other people to joke about what happened … and they explode." I think a lot of…

That's somewhat contrary to the voice over from the guy flying the chopper.

I'm afraid you've got it the wrong way round. The detached non-emotional tone adopted in the recording doesn't contradict the assertion that fighters may adopt a detached attitude during conflict as a way of pushing down emotions.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#83

Post by ErrantX »

stse wrote: post #71
andreyf wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was brought up on The Colbert Report's interview of Julian Assange [1]. His response was that they where provided the video under the condition that they'd try to maximize its political impact to the best of their ability. I don't think their strategy was the best way to fullfil that goal (precisely because of the blatant political slant), but that's their stated motivation. 1. http://www.colbertnation.com/the-c…

The thing is that it worked. I never seen any Wikileaks story get so much attention in the news or "virally" on the Internet. Here in Sweden it was a top story on all the major newspapers websites and on the evening news, but put into context. The second part with the hellfire missile, where they didn't provide much commentary, in comparison got a lot less attention. More people than usual do seem to have watched the…

> Don't be lazy, apply some critical thinking, listen to different sources.

That's not a problem, I think, for the demographic here on HN (and other places). But increased coverage reaches more people; how many have been mislead because they didn't do the above?

That's what tastes bads to me.

> don't really think you get what their doing or what's at stake.

I'm even more cynical of them now. Indeed I think it's becoming clear what their intentions really are - it's to hold a firm political stance in how they present data.

Were I a whistle blower I am afraid I wouldn't consider that a legitimate or trustworthy avenue any more.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#84

Post by arethuza »

CamperBob wrote: post #41
techiferous wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ultimately I came to the realisation there is a limit to how much we can care for the animal kingdom on a philosophical level. I agree with you 100%. I think we probably disagree on where that limit is, and I think we as humans are way overstepping our bounds. > Speaking purely as animals the need to hunt/rear/kill is perfectly natural You have a good point, and I would add that factory farming is very far from nat…

You have a good point, and I would add that factory farming is very far from natural. It's "natural" for a certain, non-negligible percentage of humanity to starve to death, or to suffer from malnutrition. Factory farming is a very important reason why fewer people starve to death every year. Screw your idea of what's "natural."

Factory farming of livestock hardly contributes to solving malnutrition - it is much more efficient to eat plants directly rather than first feeding the stuff to animals and then eating the animals.

Note: not that I have any problems with eating animals, but you can hardly defend it on efficiency grounds.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#85

Post by ErrantX »

david927 wrote: post #73

Weapons of Mass Destruction were never found. That was the causus belli. That was the reason for the invasion, and they don't exist. Someone, anyone, tell me why the U.S. is still there and under what legal basis. Anyone. I dare you. The problem is that you can't. And so now we're talking about kids with glass in their eyes and bullets in their bodies, and soldiers with psychological scars that won't heal. Yet not a…

They are still there because, very simply, it has gone too far now.

Pulling out would be carnage - and I suspect, sadly, it has got to the stage where the US will have to see it through to conclusion (probably years away).

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#86

Post by Estragon »

ErrantX wrote: post #85
david927 wrote: post #73

Weapons of Mass Destruction were never found. That was the causus belli. That was the reason for the invasion, and they don't exist. Someone, anyone, tell me why the U.S. is still there and under what legal basis. Anyone. I dare you. The problem is that you can't. And so now we're talking about kids with glass in their eyes and bullets in their bodies, and soldiers with psychological scars that won't heal. Yet not a…

They are still there because, very simply, it has gone too far now. Pulling out would be carnage - and I suspect, sadly, it has got to the stage where the US will have to see it through to conclusion (probably years away).

  Pulling out would be carnage
What are you talking about? As this video shows, it's already carnage.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#87

Post by ErrantX »

Estragon wrote: post #86
ErrantX wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are still there because, very simply, it has gone too far now. Pulling out would be carnage - and I suspect, sadly, it has got to the stage where the US will have to see it through to conclusion (probably years away).

Pulling out would be carnage What are you talking about? As this video shows, it's already carnage.

There is carnage in the video, agreed. And, yes, Iraq isn't the most hospitable of places.

The problem is that as it stands I don't think the Iraqi army could cope with the insurgents alone - and it seems naive to assume that if the US leaves the insurgency will stop...

So perhaps "a lot more carnage" is better.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#88

Post by Maktab »

jacquesm wrote: post #81
Maktab wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from the larger issue being debated here, I think you're guilty of operating under an outdated assumption. The US forces in Iraq have not been 'foreign occupiers' for quite some time. They are there at the will of the democratically elected Iraqi government in a deployment sanctioned by the UN Security Council. It should be possible to acknowledge this fact even while disagreeing with the presence of US forces…

> They are there at the will of the democratically elected Iraqi government in a deployment sanctioned by the UN Security Council. Please. The alternative is a total power vacuum, you can't really say that they're there because the locals invited them in.

I just pointed out that calling them 'foreign occupiers' is not accurate. Although as a practical matter it's difficult for the Iraqis to boot the US out because of the power vacuum that would result, that does not change the fact that under the current legal situation the US forces are there at the behest of the Iraqi government and that they would have to leave if requested to do so.

For what it's worth I did not claim that the locals invited them in. That one's a straw man.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#89

Post by F_J_H »

david927 wrote: post #69
F_J_H wrote: post #31

My wife and I had a baby girl 5 weeks ago; I never imagined I could feel as much love for someone or something as I feel for her. I easily would give my life for her. Having just experience my daughter’s birth, the soldier’s description in this article of the young girl in the shot up van and the sound of her cry cut me to the core. I can’t imagine what he is going through and the torment he must feel when that memor…

Were you born in America? Because America did this. They went to Iraq and did this. all I can think to do is to simply grieve for this situation No, you can ask that America leaves Iraq. If it was your daughter, you wouldn't just say, "I guess all I can do is grieve". Right? Look at her. I have a daughter too. You can do a fuck lot more than that. Let's get the US out of Iraq and back home. NOW.

I'm Canadian actually. More power to you bud. You are preaching to the choir.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#90

Post by TallGuyShort »

jacquesm wrote: post #80
sunchild wrote: post #47

"There’s no easy way to kill somebody. You don’t just take somebody’s life and then go on about your business for the rest of the day. That stays with you. And cracking jokes is a way of pushing that stuff down. That’s why so many soldiers come back home and they’re no longer in the situations where they have other things to think about or other people to joke about what happened … and they explode." I think a lot of…

That's somewhat contrary to the voice over from the guy flying the chopper.

That issue is addressed at the end of the article, and I can vouch for it - soldiers have to find a way to take the situation lightly at the time. It's the only way they can deal with what's going on at the time.
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