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Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

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Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#21

Post by [deleted] »

alexgartrell wrote: post #17
techiferous wrote: post #15

[EDIT: The following comment is off-topic; therefore I wish I hadn't posted it. I didn't delete it, though, so that you could make sense of the comment responses to it. My apologies for being off-topic.] I'm about to express an unpopular opinion, so I'm expecting lots of downvotes, but at least I believe that what I'm expressing is rational and from the heart. Regarding this whole WikiLeaks incident, I felt bad for b…

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but you really cannot expect us to hold the lives of children in Iraq anywhere near that of Cattle. It's hardly hypocrisy to eat a burger after calling out the soldiers, as people and animals really are, according to almost every person as well as almost every religion/philosophy, on completely different planes of existence. I support the troops who did this, but I don't think…

[deleted]

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#22

Post by ErrantX »

techiferous wrote: post #18
jonpaul wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya dude, that's taking it too far. You can't compare the loss of human life to ANYTHING else. I understand your position, but stating it detracts from what's really important - the unnecessary loss of human life.

"You can't compare the loss of human life to ANYTHING else." I'm not equating animals and humans. I would be happy if I could get at least one person to start questioning. We don't have enough philosophers nowadays. We have all "picked up" from society that we can treat animals as objects and that violence against animals isn't a big deal. I just wish I would live in a world where people would question deeply these v…

One of my ex girlfriends held views similar (a little more extreme) to the one your expressing.

Ultimately I came to the realisation there is a limit to how much we can care for the animal kingdom on a philosophical level.

Speaking purely as animals the need to hunt/rear/kill is perfectly natural ("if god wanted us to be veggies why does meat taste so damn good"). I realised that, yes, we have to counterbalance that with our increased level of intelligence (i.e. an advantage) and respect our co-inhabitants.

Edit. I'm commenting on the general philisophical views of the gp by the way rather than the specific comments about factory farming. It was not clear this was their emphasis :-) But there is a limit :)

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#23

Post by techiferous »

ErrantX wrote: post #20
techiferous wrote: post #15

[EDIT: The following comment is off-topic; therefore I wish I hadn't posted it. I didn't delete it, though, so that you could make sense of the comment responses to it. My apologies for being off-topic.] I'm about to express an unpopular opinion, so I'm expecting lots of downvotes, but at least I believe that what I'm expressing is rational and from the heart. Regarding this whole WikiLeaks incident, I felt bad for b…

> Animals in factory farms are subject to a very painful existence before their lives are cut short Well, as someone with family members in farming - AND a cynic who dislikes causing animals to suffer unnecessarily - for the most part this is utter bullshit. Slaughtering is highly regulated (at least here in the UK) and is designed to cause very little suffering to the animal.

I'm talking about the conditions that they are subject to while they are alive as well. As I understand it, many chickens are kept penned in a cage the size of a piece of notebook paper, male baby chicks are ground up alive, etc. I am interested in more accurate information about factory farms, so please share it if you have it.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#24

Post by techiferous »

microcentury wrote: post #19
techiferous wrote: post #15

[EDIT: The following comment is off-topic; therefore I wish I hadn't posted it. I didn't delete it, though, so that you could make sense of the comment responses to it. My apologies for being off-topic.] I'm about to express an unpopular opinion, so I'm expecting lots of downvotes, but at least I believe that what I'm expressing is rational and from the heart. Regarding this whole WikiLeaks incident, I felt bad for b…

Jeez dude... Do you really equate human and animal life? I have lots of sympathy with your position in general, and I don't have a good answer for why I don't go vegetarian, but this seems extreme to me.

> Do you really equate human and animal life?

No.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#25

Post by lotharbot »

techiferous wrote: post #15

[EDIT: The following comment is off-topic; therefore I wish I hadn't posted it. I didn't delete it, though, so that you could make sense of the comment responses to it. My apologies for being off-topic.] I'm about to express an unpopular opinion, so I'm expecting lots of downvotes, but at least I believe that what I'm expressing is rational and from the heart. Regarding this whole WikiLeaks incident, I felt bad for b…

I'm not downvoting you for your opinion.

I'm downvoting you because there's absolutely no reason to bring up your opinion on factory farming in this particular thread. In a discussion of factory farming, the harm done to animals, or even a basic food/vegitarianism thread, I would gladly upvote you for sharing from the heart, even as I disagreed with you. But really, this is not the place.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#26

Post by adame944 »

A key line:

"I doubt that they were a part of that firefight. However, when I did come up on the scene, there was an RPG as well as AK-47s there. … You just don’t walk around with an RPG in Iraq, especially three blocks away from a firefight. …"

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#27

Post by techiferous »

ErrantX wrote: post #22
techiferous wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can't compare the loss of human life to ANYTHING else." I'm not equating animals and humans. I would be happy if I could get at least one person to start questioning. We don't have enough philosophers nowadays. We have all "picked up" from society that we can treat animals as objects and that violence against animals isn't a big deal. I just wish I would live in a world where people would question deeply these v…

One of my ex girlfriends held views similar (a little more extreme) to the one your expressing. Ultimately I came to the realisation there is a limit to how much we can care for the animal kingdom on a philosophical level. Speaking purely as animals the need to hunt/rear/kill is perfectly natural ("if god wanted us to be veggies why does meat taste so damn good"). I realised that, yes, we have to counterbalance that…

> Ultimately I came to the realisation there is a limit to how much we can care for the animal kingdom on a philosophical level.

I agree with you 100%.

I think we probably disagree on where that limit is, and I think we as humans are way overstepping our bounds.

> Speaking purely as animals the need to hunt/rear/kill is perfectly natural

You have a good point, and I would add that factory farming is very far from natural.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#28

Post by ErrantX »

techiferous wrote: post #23
ErrantX wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Animals in factory farms are subject to a very painful existence before their lives are cut short Well, as someone with family members in farming - AND a cynic who dislikes causing animals to suffer unnecessarily - for the most part this is utter bullshit. Slaughtering is highly regulated (at least here in the UK) and is designed to cause very little suffering to the animal.

I'm talking about the conditions that they are subject to while they are alive as well. As I understand it, many chickens are kept penned in a cage the size of a piece of notebook paper, male baby chicks are ground up alive, etc. I am interested in more accurate information about factory farms, so please share it if you have it.

Oh I see your point. Well conditions on facorty farms are.. Worse but not quite like the picture your painting. I don't really agree with the way factory farms operate but regualations are forcing them to improve.

I don't think Im qualified to comment on animals suffering in those conditions. I've never researched it fully.

This isn't really the sort of place for this discussion - in hindsight.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#29

Post by [deleted] »

lotharbot wrote: post #25
techiferous wrote: post #15

[EDIT: The following comment is off-topic; therefore I wish I hadn't posted it. I didn't delete it, though, so that you could make sense of the comment responses to it. My apologies for being off-topic.] I'm about to express an unpopular opinion, so I'm expecting lots of downvotes, but at least I believe that what I'm expressing is rational and from the heart. Regarding this whole WikiLeaks incident, I felt bad for b…

I'm not downvoting you for your opinion. I'm downvoting you because there's absolutely no reason to bring up your opinion on factory farming in this particular thread. In a discussion of factory farming, the harm done to animals, or even a basic food/vegitarianism thread, I would gladly upvote you for sharing from the heart, even as I disagreed with you. But really, this is not the place.

[deleted]

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#30

Post by andreyf »

pg wrote: post #8
roboneal wrote: post #5

The commentary of this soldier, and possibly others, would have provided some context to this incident. He supports the initial engagement, but criticizes the secondary attack on the van and a later firing of a Hellfire missile into a building. A context the Wikileaks' "Collateral Murder" campaign was sorely lacking.

Yes; I lost a lot of respect for Wikileaks after that. It seemed as if they'd branched out into the propaganda business. I wonder what made them change direction after so long.

This was brought up on The Colbert Report's interview of Julian Assange [1]. His response was that they where provided the video under the condition that they'd try to maximize its political impact to the best of their ability. I don't think their strategy was the best way to fullfil that goal (precisely because of the blatant political slant), but that's their stated motivation.

1. http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/27071...

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