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China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

washingtonpost.com

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Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#101

Post by chrisfosterelli »

totalZero wrote: post #98
chrisfosterelli wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Were credit score non existing in 2008? If so, were they completely ignored? I think the parent's point may be incorrect in this example. The financial crisis didn't happen because the lenders weren't aware the clients had a high likelihood of default, it was because the lenders didn't care the clients had a high likelihood of default. The mortgages were packed into packages and sold to other entities so the lender…

Parent here...I agree with you, and if you read my comments again you will see that I never said the lenders were unaware. I said the credit history data were available and would have indicated a lack of suitability for the borrowers.

Ah, I thought you were trying to argue that they were unaware. Thanks for clarifying :)

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#102

Post by grzm »

prewett wrote: post #92
ctrlalt_g wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the U.S., the courts can't decide whether something is moral or immoral. If we throw people in jail for corruption, it won't be because they were found guilty of having a bad moral character. It will be because of an illegal conflict of interest or anticompetitive practices or something like that. That's what a separation of church and state means in this context.

The US court sure comes close to deciding moral issues, if not actually. Abortion: some people say killing babies is wrong and should be illegal; other people say a woman has the right to kill* her baby if it hasn't been born yet. Homosexual marriage: some people say it is wrong and should be illegal; others say it is right and should be legal. So if I think homosexual marriage is wrong, the court requires that the s…

I think I see what you're saying, and I agree that laws and morality are similar. That said, I do think they can be meaningfully distinguished. Edit: I understand you make this distinction as well.

The duty of the judiciary is to interpret and apply the law. The creation of the law is the job of the legislative branch. It seems to me that while people may agree or object to laws on moral grounds, the judicial branch is focussed on the application of the law itself, not the moral aspects of it. As the legislature creates the law, one could argue that they're more directly responsible for encoding morality into the law. Though some might think in some cases the judicial branch abuses it's interpretive duty by "legislating from the bench".

What do you think? Edit: I suspect we're actually quite close to agreeing.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#103

Post by colordrops »

truffelion wrote: post #74

I feel like a crazy person every time I try to point out that North America is already there. We've just done it in a less reductionist manner, in which multiple scores are used for different purposes, because you can discriminate better with better targeted data. The IRS rates you on likelihood of fraud, border patrol rates you on your likelihood of breaking residency law, the FBI rates everyone's chances of being a…

Same goes for propaganda and media control.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#104

Post by michaelmrose »

totalZero wrote: post #81
truffelion wrote: post #74

I feel like a crazy person every time I try to point out that North America is already there. We've just done it in a less reductionist manner, in which multiple scores are used for different purposes, because you can discriminate better with better targeted data. The IRS rates you on likelihood of fraud, border patrol rates you on your likelihood of breaking residency law, the FBI rates everyone's chances of being a…

Oh, come on. We have our problems as a society but this is a little much. I have two specific objections. * The financial crisis was partially a result of mortgages being given to people whose financial data would have suggested that they had no business borrowing so much money. In that case, the opposite of your point is true. This shows that attention to data is beneficial to a mortgage system because it helps avoi…

They weren't given loans because they were incapable of figuring out they were bad loans due to insufficient data they were given bad loans because there was money to be made by giving out bad loans and bundling into mortgage backed securities. They deliberately crashed our economy as part of an effort to inflate their bonuses because they just don't give a fuck about you. me, or America.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#105

Post by girzel »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #51

My concern is that China will use the scoring to make moral judgments about citizens. Yes, we have credit scores and DMV scores and some of us wind up on white lists (PreCheck) or black lists (No-Fly) for air travel. But determining business risk is different from determining whether someone is a moral or immoral person, and then using that subjectivity to control the population. It's value to the regime is in that s…

The problem with this happening in China is that, given the rampant corruption, authoritarianism, lack and transparency and lack of rule of law in China, the system is pretty much guaranteed to be expressed in the worst possible way: used for population control and political repression, and gamed by those in power for their own benefit.

Something really bad is happening in China. There's been talk for a few years about abolishing the hukou system of housing registration, which would appear to be a step towards liberalization, but at the same time the government seems to be running full tilt in the other direction, developing new systems for control. I just left China after fifteen years, and when I moved out of my apartment in central Beijing, an Indian guy was considering moving in after me. The local police station told my landlord, "no Indians". Later they told her, "no one without a Beijing hukou can live there", which is pretty staggering if true, as the majority of Beijing residents don't have Beijing hukou.

I don't know what's going on, but levels of paranoia in the higher reaches of power are spiking, big time.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#106

Post by brbsix »

prewett wrote: post #97
tmptmp wrote: post #68

I feel sad about the Chinese people and people living under communist/Marxist regimes. Communism/Marxism is one of the worst ideologies out there (along with intolerant religions). The western democracy is the best model the humans have invented yet. This is not to say we must not strive to improve it. But Communism/Marxism is not at all an improvement, it's an outright societal cancer. But I am seeing is the increas…

Frankly, I think it is the far Right that are closer to anti-democracy. Witness: Trump claiming he won't accept the results of the election, that's about as undemocratic as you can get.

Where did Trump claim that he won't accept the results of the election? In the debates, he refrained from saying one way or another.[0] There's a big difference between what he said and what you're saying he said.

[0]: Trump: What I’m saying is that I will tell you at the time. I'll keep you in suspense, okay?

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/full-transcript-third-...

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#107

Post by echevil »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #51

My concern is that China will use the scoring to make moral judgments about citizens. Yes, we have credit scores and DMV scores and some of us wind up on white lists (PreCheck) or black lists (No-Fly) for air travel. But determining business risk is different from determining whether someone is a moral or immoral person, and then using that subjectivity to control the population. It's value to the regime is in that s…

You're worrying too much. A big differerence in China is that people will take this kind of things much less seriously. Even the impact of credit scores are close to zero.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#110

Post by joe_the_user »

woodruffw wrote: post #83
truffelion wrote: post #74

I feel like a crazy person every time I try to point out that North America is already there. We've just done it in a less reductionist manner, in which multiple scores are used for different purposes, because you can discriminate better with better targeted data. The IRS rates you on likelihood of fraud, border patrol rates you on your likelihood of breaking residency law, the FBI rates everyone's chances of being a…

As far as I know, none of the agencies you mentioned have individual numerical scores for 330M+ Americans and US residents. The closest thing is credit scores (which the article mentions), which are metered and tracked by private companies under a broad set of federal regulations. More to the point, your potential employers don't get access to your personal life, beyond what you divulge to them and whatever informati…

Indeed,

The US may have many real privacy violations but you have at least an ostensible right to privacy.

That authority figures don't have to pretend fair even if they aren't actually fair is worth something. That surveillance isn't official is worth something. Sure, solid guarantees to privacy would be better but one really shouldn't claim unofficial surveillance is the same as official surveillance since the move from one to the other needs to be resisted also.

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