China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone • Hacker News Board

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#91

Post by chrisfosterelli » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 5:51 AM UTC

vmarsy wrote: post #87

totalZero wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, come on. We have our problems as a society but this is a little much. I have two specific objections. * The financial crisis was partially a result of mortgages being given to people whose financial data would have suggested that they had no business borrowing so much money. In that case, the opposite of your point is true. This shows that attention to data is beneficial to a mortgage system because it helps avoi…

> The financial crisis was partially a result of mortgages being given to people whose financial data would have suggested that they had no business borrowing so much money. In that case, the opposite of your point is true. This shows that attention to data is beneficial to a mortgage system because it helps avoid questionable loans. Were credit score non existing in 2008? If so, were they completely ignored? Also, i…

> Were credit score non existing in 2008? If so, were they completely ignored?

I think the parent's point may be incorrect in this example. The financial crisis didn't happen because the lenders weren't aware the clients had a high likelihood of default, it was because the lenders didn't care the clients had a high likelihood of default.

The mortgages were packed into packages and sold to other entities so the lenders who initiated the loans passed along the risk. They knew very well that the clients were high risk, but they were incentivized to ignore those risk factors.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#92

Post by prewett » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 5:52 AM UTC

ctrlalt_g wrote: post #85

hilop wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does church have to do with this? We can throw people in jail for "corruption"

In the U.S., the courts can't decide whether something is moral or immoral. If we throw people in jail for corruption, it won't be because they were found guilty of having a bad moral character. It will be because of an illegal conflict of interest or anticompetitive practices or something like that. That's what a separation of church and state means in this context.

The US court sure comes close to deciding moral issues, if not actually. Abortion: some people say killing babies is wrong and should be illegal; other people say a woman has the right to kill* her baby if it hasn't been born yet. Homosexual marriage: some people say it is wrong and should be illegal; others say it is right and should be legal. So if I think homosexual marriage is wrong, the court requires that the society I live in treat it as okay, which leaves many people feeling like the court is legislating morality. (Of course, the opposite is true, too) Furthermore, the court pretty much has to rule on things like this. So it's a pretty fine line.

* I freely admit to being biased on this issue, but the fetus has a heart-beat at 3 weeks; it's hard to say it's not living being. And if it's living, aborting/terminating it is technically killing it.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#93

Post by flanbiscuit » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 5:52 AM UTC

cpeterso wrote: post #67

This reminds me of the "Whuffie" social currency from Cory Doctorow's science fiction novel Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom . A person's current Whuffie is instantly viewable to anyone, as everybody has a brain implant giving them an interface with the Net. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whuffie

my first thoughts exactly. It seems more and more that we're heading towards this type of system.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#94

Post by cscurmudgeon » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 5:54 AM UTC

Hondor wrote: post #76

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DMV tracking whether you are driving drunk is not the same as the Chinese govt. tracking whether you praise the govt. on Facebook. > The FBI and CIA I think also collect statistics and profile relevant individuals. Citation needed (especially that they do it for everyone).

The US does track what you say on Facebook to see how much of a terrorist or criminal you might be. Just because you think "praise the government" isn't worthy of reward, doesn't mean it isn't. Afterall, China doesn't have a democracy, so if people are too dissatisfied with the government, instead of voting it out, they might have a revolution, which would be disastrous. In that environment, praising the government c…

I agree it makes sense for the Chinese govt. just as it made sense, for example, for a slave trader to put down slaves that didn't toe his line and reward those that obeyed him fully.

You know what might make more sense? The Chinese govt. (or any other similar aspiring govt.) should spend billions on BCI research and implant chips in everyone so that any dis-harmonious thoughts can be culled right at the source.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#95

Post by rblatz » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 5:54 AM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #77

apatters wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but these are privately owned communities and if you disagree with their standards you can go join some other community or start your own. A Chinese citizen can't exactly go start their own competitor to the Communist Party.

And yet... credit scores are maintained by private companies, and are inescapable in the US, as are their effects on your opportunities in life. So "It's a company, not a government" is not a useful argument to make for this kind of situation.

And to combat the flaws in the private system the government passed laws giving you the right to see the data they have and challenge that data. Are you arguing that statistical analysis should be outlawed? Do you think everyone should have to pay more to borrow money?

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#96

Post by totalZero » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 5:56 AM UTC

vmarsy wrote: post #87

totalZero wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, come on. We have our problems as a society but this is a little much. I have two specific objections. * The financial crisis was partially a result of mortgages being given to people whose financial data would have suggested that they had no business borrowing so much money. In that case, the opposite of your point is true. This shows that attention to data is beneficial to a mortgage system because it helps avoi…

> The financial crisis was partially a result of mortgages being given to people whose financial data would have suggested that they had no business borrowing so much money. In that case, the opposite of your point is true. This shows that attention to data is beneficial to a mortgage system because it helps avoid questionable loans. Were credit score non existing in 2008? If so, were they completely ignored? Also, i…

FICO scores existed and were ignored, yes.

Lenders would make money by originating loans and selling them to larger financial institutions, so they had no skin in the game when it came to counterparty risk. Lenders certainly had access to FICO scores, but they had a profit incentive to pitch and approve loans to unsuitable borrowers, and there is a strong argument to be made that they used passable FICO scores to justify bad loans to people with no income and no assets.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predatory_lending https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_lending https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NINJA_loan

Separately, one of the many differences between Europe and the US leading up to the crisis was that thanks to years of comments from Alan Greenspan, it became culturally acceptable and even encouraged for American borrowers to "tap into their home equity" by taking second mortgages. So, when houses got cheaper, many people who had been paying loans for a while still owed plenty of principal. One might argue that there was negligence on the part of second mortgage lenders here.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#97

Post by prewett » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 5:56 AM UTC

tmptmp wrote: post #68

I feel sad about the Chinese people and people living under communist/Marxist regimes. Communism/Marxism is one of the worst ideologies out there (along with intolerant religions). The western democracy is the best model the humans have invented yet. This is not to say we must not strive to improve it. But Communism/Marxism is not at all an improvement, it's an outright societal cancer. But I am seeing is the increas…

Frankly, I think it is the far Right that are closer to anti-democracy. Witness: Trump claiming he won't accept the results of the election, that's about as undemocratic as you can get.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#98

Post by totalZero » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 6:00 AM UTC

chrisfosterelli wrote: post #91

vmarsy wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The financial crisis was partially a result of mortgages being given to people whose financial data would have suggested that they had no business borrowing so much money. In that case, the opposite of your point is true. This shows that attention to data is beneficial to a mortgage system because it helps avoid questionable loans. Were credit score non existing in 2008? If so, were they completely ignored? Also, i…

> Were credit score non existing in 2008? If so, were they completely ignored? I think the parent's point may be incorrect in this example. The financial crisis didn't happen because the lenders weren't aware the clients had a high likelihood of default, it was because the lenders didn't care the clients had a high likelihood of default. The mortgages were packed into packages and sold to other entities so the lender…

Parent here...I agree with you, and if you read my comments again you will see that I never said the lenders were unaware. I said the credit history data were available and would have indicated a lack of suitability for the borrowers.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#99

Post by rblatz » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 6:02 AM UTC

prewett wrote: post #92

ctrlalt_g wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the U.S., the courts can't decide whether something is moral or immoral. If we throw people in jail for corruption, it won't be because they were found guilty of having a bad moral character. It will be because of an illegal conflict of interest or anticompetitive practices or something like that. That's what a separation of church and state means in this context.

The US court sure comes close to deciding moral issues, if not actually. Abortion: some people say killing babies is wrong and should be illegal; other people say a woman has the right to kill* her baby if it hasn't been born yet. Homosexual marriage: some people say it is wrong and should be illegal; others say it is right and should be legal. So if I think homosexual marriage is wrong, the court requires that the s…

Can it survive on its own outside the mother's body? Or implanted into another mothers body? If not how alive is it? But more importantly how can you enforce upon a woman the sacrifice to her body and self to carry this fetus to term? Does she not have autonomy and control of her own body?

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#100

Post by prewett » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 6:03 AM UTC

alextooter wrote: post #78

tmptmp wrote: post #68

I feel sad about the Chinese people and people living under communist/Marxist regimes. Communism/Marxism is one of the worst ideologies out there (along with intolerant religions). The western democracy is the best model the humans have invented yet. This is not to say we must not strive to improve it. But Communism/Marxism is not at all an improvement, it's an outright societal cancer. But I am seeing is the increas…

You are total wrong. In fact,today China is not communist/Marxist at all.China is more Capitalism than USA. The word communist/Marxist is only mentioned when holding big meetings.

China is definitely not communist, but it is definitely less capitalist than the US. Fundamentally the "Communist" Party is about control, which is directly opposed to a free market (i.e., capitalism). For example, the Chinese government wants a stock market. But, they want this market to always go up. (down = people lose money = risk of social unrest) So this year they tried stopping the market if it fell too far, suspending trading of certain companies, telling fund and/or brokerages that they could not sell certain companies. NOT capitalism. Also, the economy is dominated by large state-owned-enterprises (SOEs) which receive strong direction from the government. The government tells factories around Beijing to close whenever a government meeting is in town, so the air will be clean. Note how none of those things happen in the US.