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All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

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Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#271

Post by sinxoveretothex »

CN7R wrote: post #255
rak00n wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it can run itself in the background and check how it's acting differently on exceptional cases comparing to a human driver. Like a dry run.

So.. like linear regression, and removing outliers to get a more correct fit?

Kind of. There's a lot of different machine learning approaches, but at least with neural networks, you essentially have a black box (the network) that you feed inputs into and it spits out which category it gets classified into. When learning, you know what the right category should be, so you go through the network in reverse (backpropagation) and update the weights inside by an arbitrary amount multiplying the difference between what is wanted and what is spitted out.

Eventually, (and with a lot of handwaving) the difference converges towards 0 and the network gives the right answer.

Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#272

Post by stmfreak »

Animats wrote: post #99

More cameras. Better sonars (very short range). Better radar processing, but apparently the same old single radar at bumper height. Still no windshield-height radar. No radar scanning in elevation. No LIDAR. That's a better, but still weak sensor suite. It's probably enough for freeway driving under good conditions. It's far below Google's sensor suite. Or Volvo's. Now they just have to write software smart enough to…

Humans manage with only two cameras.

Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#273

Post by zamalek »

Symmetry wrote: post #194
maratd wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a better, but still weak sensor suite. All you have is two overlapping cameras with poor resolution and they let you behind the wheel, right? This is a software and processing hardware problem only . Human beings drive OK for the most part and we don't have lidar/radar/sonar/etc. With 8 cameras providing 360 vision and an advanced NVIDIA hardware suite, this problem is entirely solvable and this is a very re…

Hey, the human eye is a damn fine camera and has the equivalent of a room's worth of NVidia cards in processing power behind it. It does have very poor depth perception compared to radar or lidar, a quite limited field of view, and an inability to see through fog but lets not sell a person short.

> processing power behind it

And the best that all that processing power can come up with is: tailgating someone. No thanks.

Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#274

Post by eridius »

serge2k wrote: post #239
toomuchtodo wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But not being able to USE your car for some things? That just screams easy headlines and it's a reason I might not get a Tesla in the future. Its your car. It's Tesla software. You don't own it, just like you don't own any of the other commercial software you use. I can't really find fault in it; they deserve the lion's share of the revenue (not Uber, Lyft, or you) if you put the vehicle into their shared rideshari…

> I can't really find fault in it; they deserve the lion's share of the revenue Why? I paid them for the car. I should able to use the car however I want.

You can use the car all you want. Go drive for Lyft or Uber. You just can't use the self-driving functionality that way. If you want your car to be making you money by driving people around automatically without you in it, you need to do so using the Tesla Network.

Honestly, this doesn't seem all that unreasonable. Self-driving functionality is presumably a piece of functionality that's heavily dependent upon lots of data that Tesla owns, dependent upon regularly getting software update, etc. Why should Tesla give its data and continued work on software upgrades to you for the purposes of using that for the benefit of one of Tesla's competitors?

Just face it. If you're buying a Tesla, you're not just buying a car, you're buying a software platform and access to lots of data and engineering work that Tesla provides on an ongoing basis. If you want just a car, then don't buy Tesla.

That said, if you are looking to buy a self-driving car and using that self-driving functionality for Uber or Lyft, good luck figuring out how. It would not surprise me if other self-driving cars had similar restrictions (though I guess if Uber sells self-driving cars to the general public then presumably you could use those with Uber, but probably not with Lyft).

Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#275

Post by hueving »

rak00n wrote: post #237
danmaz74 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big difference is that Google's car are actually self-driving themselves. Tesla's cars will collect a lot of data, but about human driving. The actual automated driving software will have to be tested separately.

No, it can run itself in the background and check how it's acting differently on exceptional cases comparing to a human driver. Like a dry run.

Yes, but it has to understand the difference between minor human errors (allowing more drift than autopilot) and actual important differences (braking ahead of a potential collision that the autopilot can't see).

Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#276

Post by Thimothy »

luma wrote: post #91

I think what people are missing here is an understanding of how these systems are tested and deployed at scale. While I have no involvement with Tesla I do have first-hand knowledge of similar programs at tier 1 automotive suppliers. The suppliers provide (or are looking to provide) an electronics suite to car manufacturers. The car manufacturers want the system to be safe lest they be sued out of existence. One part…

Why aren't other manufacturers following this model? I've seen 12-year Mercedes with internet connection, so the infrastructure has been there for a while.

Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#277

Post by sinxoveretothex »

sangnoir wrote: post #265
djsumdog wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most interesting thing about self-driving vehicles is that there is a legitimate reason people should never be able to modify the firmware on their vehicles. The risks would be very high. There is also the entire liability and planed obsolescent issues not being dealt with. Will Tesla support these cars forever? Will 10 year old models still get software updates?

> The most interesting thing about self-driving vehicles is that there is a legitimate reason people should never be able to modify the firmware on their vehicles People can already modify their car hardware in dangerous ways, yet no one is welding the hood shut. You may weld spikes on your car to keep prying eyes away if you wish, but when you inevitably impale someone, Ford will not be liable. Why should software b…

> You may weld spikes on your car to keep prying eyes away if you wish, but when you inevitably impale someone, Ford will not be liable.

Because it will be obvious that it was modified, even to journalists, the public and a jury of your peers. Also the cops, who will arrest you for it.

But there is no such visibility for software.

Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#278

Post by phreeza »

CardenB wrote: post #263
frik wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's staggering that Tesla don't use LIDAR at all. Sure LIDAR is more expensive but the data quality is very stable and good. Cameras won't work that well or at all in night or when the sun rays blend in morning / evening or in bad weather conditions like heavy rain or snow. All other self-driving cars I know of have at least a small LIDAR beside several other types of sensors.

Lidar doesn't make sense for Tesla with the failure rate alone. They're mechanical devices, and they often have defects when produced at scale. They need to be replaced very often. This makes sense when you're doing vehicles as a service, but not as much for Tesla's use case.

What about the solid state LIDAR mentioned by the GP?

Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#279

Post by eridius »

hrayr wrote: post #82
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #7

> Teslas with new hardware will temporarily lack certain features currently available on Teslas with first-generation Autopilot hardware, including some standard safety features such as automatic emergency breaking, collision warning, lane holding and active cruise control. Not sure what to make of this. New buyers are getting less than current owners now, but expected to get much more later? I can't think of a prece…

Perhaps the original iPhone falls in this category. It did less (games, apps) than the competition when it launched, but soon the same product overtook the competition when the app store and API was released.

When the original iPhone was released, there were no "current owners", because the thing wasn't available before it was released (that's kind of what 'released' means).

Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#280

Post by Tharkun »

misja111 wrote: post #270
ChuckMcM wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but it is not uncommon for example for chip manufacturers to specifically say their parts cannot be used in safety systems without their express written authorization. They are certainly confident their chips work, and they sell them by the bucket full, but if someone dies as a result of using their product that their chips are in, they don't want to be liable. They use those disclaimers to shift liability t…

There is a funny example of such a disclaimer in the Java license agreement, it says: "You acknowledge that Software is not designed, licensed or intended for use in the design, construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear facility"

I wonder whether that's some kind of odd safety clause, or an even odder anti-proliferation clause?
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