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Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

nytimes.com

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Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#251

Post by amalcon »

snowwrestler wrote: post #234
awjr wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this differently. I see a world heading towards basic income. Adam Curtis - HyperNormalisation was released last night ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p04b183c/adam-curtis-hy... ). Haven't watched it yet but I do think there seems to be a certain type of crazy happening in the world and I can't put my finger on it. We have whole generations of young people that have been disenfranchised and are having to…

There's a big problem that a basic income doesn't solve, which is the lack of a job. From the article: > Some experts suspect that frequent use of painkillers is a result of being out of work, because people who have no job prospects are more likely to be depressed, become addicted to drugs and alcohol and have other mental health problems. A job is more than a way to earn money. Jobs help people structure their live…

It's easy to find a "job" if you don't need the money earning part, though. There are nonprofits all over the place that will happily give you all the tasks you want, even tasks that you can do from home if that's what you need, as long as they don't need to pay you.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#252

Post by [deleted] »

reader5000 wrote: post #241
pcurve wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, this has been a long term trend that pre-dates proliferation of internet by decades.

How you mean? Young people dropping out of society I thought was a relatively recent thing. In Japan "hikikomori" started getting noted early 2000s.

[deleted]

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#253

Post by coldtea »

muninn_ wrote: post #107
coldtea wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well we don't need a TV at all. Or a 2,000 square foot house, or an education. We could just subsistence farm or something. Because it's either BS consumerism or subsistence farming?

Well, what's consumerism to one isn't to another. If you're going to discuss needs and say somebody doesn't "need" something, then frankly there is a lot that we don't "need". To sustain life we could probably all get by as farmers and anything else would just be more than we "need".

>Well, what's consumerism to one isn't to another.

The same is true for a number of horrible things too: some people like them and go for them. That doesn't make them less bad.

I'm not in favor of total relativism...

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#254

Post by vrtx0 »

tropo wrote: post #250
vrtx0 wrote: post #114

I'm one of these missing men. I'm currently 35, and have been working as a software engineer since I was 19. Two years ago, I started experiencing excruciating, unrelenting low back pain that eventually required me to leave my job and go on long term disability. I loved my job. I worked at MongoDB in Palo Alto for 3 years, contributing to the core database (C++) and designed a performance testing platform (among othe…

There are non-opioid choices. Pick one. The opioids will ultimately kill you. Ziconotide is a fine choice. It works better too. The only downside is that you can't take it in pill form.

There are non-opioid choices. I've been through every prescription oral medication. Some are worse than opioids. Gabapentin and its class make me incredibly nauseous before relieving pain. Most just don't touch it (some even started raising my AST and ALT).

That drug can't even be given by IV or IM, can it? I'm a candidate for the intrathecal pain pump, which looks to be the only way the drug you mentioned can be administered. But most doctors have suggested I wait for some clear answers before hooking a drug pump directly up to my spinal cord.

Thanks for mentioning this drug though. I'll ask my pain mgmt doctor about it.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#255

Post by vrtx0 »

reverend_gonzo wrote: post #158
vrtx0 wrote: post #114

I'm one of these missing men. I'm currently 35, and have been working as a software engineer since I was 19. Two years ago, I started experiencing excruciating, unrelenting low back pain that eventually required me to leave my job and go on long term disability. I loved my job. I worked at MongoDB in Palo Alto for 3 years, contributing to the core database (C++) and designed a performance testing platform (among othe…

I was one who called the other guy lazy. You are different, and I know there are many others who are in similar situations as yourself. The current opiate epidemic and crackdown is also unfortunately affecting people like you, who are legitimately in pain. I don't really have anything, besides saying that we as a society should do what we can to get you healthy, but I feel that when there's people who are healthy eno…

Thanks -- I genuinely appreciate your sentiment. As Sontag said:

"Everyone who is born holds dual citizenship, in the kingdom of the well and in the kingdom of the sick. Although we all prefer to use only the good passport, sooner or later each of us is obliged, at least for a spell, to identify ourselves as citizens of that other place."

Just as we don't like to think about dying, we don't like to think about getting sick. Fatigue, depression, pain, etc. -- they're all real, and can be completely debilitating. Nobody is immune. But sadly, people can indeed fake many of these symptoms; even the best MRIs and latest technology (like DaT scans) can't prove or disprove nearly as much as I thought before my first hand experience. That said, I don't _think_ that anybody faking a condition would subject themselves to as much radiation or spinal injections as a truly sick person would...

Anyway, you make a very valid point about what society sees, and their knee-jerk reaction. I felt this first hand when I moved from CA to FL (the former "pill mill capital of the US") nearly two years ago. Years before I moved back here, the state legislated limits on opioid prescriptions, and I had to reduce my dose when changing doctors. Did this legislation reduce opioid prescriptions in the state? yes. But heroin use has also skyrocketed. And legitimate patients are still suffering. But I digress... Thanks again for your comment.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#256

Post by ryandrake »

snowwrestler wrote: post #234
awjr wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this differently. I see a world heading towards basic income. Adam Curtis - HyperNormalisation was released last night ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p04b183c/adam-curtis-hy... ). Haven't watched it yet but I do think there seems to be a certain type of crazy happening in the world and I can't put my finger on it. We have whole generations of young people that have been disenfranchised and are having to…

There's a big problem that a basic income doesn't solve, which is the lack of a job. From the article: > Some experts suspect that frequent use of painkillers is a result of being out of work, because people who have no job prospects are more likely to be depressed, become addicted to drugs and alcohol and have other mental health problems. A job is more than a way to earn money. Jobs help people structure their live…

This idea (that jobs are required to give a sense of purpose) and it's close cousin idea (that one's living must be "earned" and the proper way is with a job), are reasons why Basic Income, even if financially feasible, would never be politically feasible.

Our culture is so wrapped up in the idea of the necessity of jobs that I predict we will see government programs to pay 1/2 of the people to dig holes and the other 1/2 to fill them in, before we see Basic Income.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#257

Post by contingencies »

istjohn wrote: post #244
contingencies wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I implied that perhaps their particular mental configurations, different as they are, should perhaps not be considered abnormal and in fact this is a false stigma of society. I did not imply any value judgement about their mental configurations.

Your attitude, were it to be adopted as conventional wisdom, would deprive huge numbers of people of medical treatment that dramatically improves their lives. Most DSM definitions stipulate something similar to: "There is clear evidence that the symptoms interfere with, or reduce the quality of, social, academic or occupational functioning". If people seek help for such conditions, they should have their concerns tak…

Not once did I suggest that people were not ill, merely that a society's consideration of a high proportion of its people as ill is a symptom of the society more than the individuals. The baseline assumption in your polemic that people should center their lives around "social, academic or occupational functioning" is actually highly offensive to some, including myself.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#258

Post by taneq »

secstate wrote: post #52
andrepd wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy. It kinda does, because for you to be able to idle and sit in your home painting, somebody else has to go on the "giant treadmill" to feed you, house you, and clothe you. Do you think I wouldn't like to idle at home as I please, and paint and write and read and laze about? Only if everybody did that we would all starve to de…

I think the problem with your statement is that the Information Revolution came with a philosophy that automation would end the need for 9-5 Industrial Revolution ideas of work. It hasn't, and we're still working 40 hours a week, but now it's to support the consumption machine that WWII created. Do we really need new original Netflix programming? Do we need whatever crazy-ass pumpkin and coffee flavored beverage a ha…

I'm not that fussed about most of those things but yeah, faster computers and my nice big flat (relatively) cheap TV are nice to have. Do I need them? Nah. Am I willing to work to spend money on them? You bet!

I work a certain amount to earn the basics, and everything after that is for nice things that I want. Is that bad?

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#259

Post by SolaceQuantum »

ericd wrote: post #214
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will note that those things have value,especially dependent on where you are and what context you exist in socially. There are conversations about tv shows, actors, whatever new show is on Netflix that you will be isolated from without access. There are friends and family with apple products that don't work well with a cheaper phone, such as the messaging system on iPhone. It becomes an obstacle to social activitie…

Everyone who has given up those things has dealt with those pressures. They're certainly not insurmountable, and the payoff is not being in debt with a bunch of stuff that has no value once it leaves the store.

I actually don't know if that is true. I am from a very different background (Chinese) and I don't really suffer the need to buy fashionable new clothes or get the newest phone. As long as I interact with and love my friends and family it is okay.

However, in an American university I feel often left out or ignored because I cannot be as passionate about actors, movies, or similar media as I don't watch films or television out of habit. I feel this can often deprive me of being able to network with cohorts. That's pretty significant.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#260

Post by jokoon »

logicallee wrote: post #204
jokoon wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If companies need me so much, they would be contacting me. If they don't, they can do without. Those are incentives too. And no, I don't get paid for my disability, I just get welfare like other unemployed people.

Hi Jokoon - as mentioned I don't believe the thoughts I quoted, they are written by people worse than Nazis so don't take this too seriously. If we did take them seriously for a minute (even though they're obviously wrong) then perhaps they might respond like this to your points : - If companies need me so much, they would be contacting me. If they don't, they can do without. Those are incentives too. Firstly, this i…

I'm confused, why are you copy-pasting nazis? This reply is very weird.
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