Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market • Hacker News Board

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#211

Post by bigmanwalter » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 4:23 PM UTC

muninn_ wrote: post #124

mfoy_ wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well stated like that it sounds like a good deal, but that statement makes a list of assumptions as long as my arm that quite simply are not guaranteed.

Well in this context we're talking about software dev so. College graduates still makes a lot more over their lifetimes, debt or not, than high school grads.

For starters, OP says that he has health issues. That makes it much more difficult to hold a full-time job. If he can only work part time, he would be stuck earning far below the full-time market rate. As total annual revenue decreases, the time required to pay off that debt, along with the total amount of interest paid servicing it, goes up exponentially. Going to university isn't always a guaranteed win.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#212

Post by brockers » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 4:34 PM UTC

rjbwork wrote: post #21

sc4th1s wrote: post #15

Video games could be playing a part: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/09/23/why-a...

Seems like a symptom, not a cause. Escapism for the psychologically inflicted and chronically unemployed.

I don't know. Escapism before the advent of technology generally meant writing letters, reading books, walking, drinking, and visiting friends. All these activities seem to promote mental health and productive behavior compared to digital media. Digital media generally discourages socializing (or at least not real human interaction), discourages sleep, promotes a lack of physical exercise, et al.

Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not trying to argue; just talking out loud about my perceptions as a Software Engineering, Civ5, and CSGo player.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#213

Post by neves » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 4:41 PM UTC

And if doesn't talk about the incarcerated population. In USA they are a big chunk of the young male population (a lot of them black).

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#214

Post by ericd » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 4:42 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #113

reverend_gonzo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus, there is so much entitlement in this post I don't even know where to start. No, you don't NEED an Apple iPhone, and a TV with Netflix, and Amazon, and a Gant sweater. There are thousands of families that are surviving just fine without any of that. We have survived for centuries without external entertainment, and suddenly, you NEED this so you don't get bored? Why not have a conversation with your wife. Sit d…

I will note that those things have value,especially dependent on where you are and what context you exist in socially. There are conversations about tv shows, actors, whatever new show is on Netflix that you will be isolated from without access. There are friends and family with apple products that don't work well with a cheaper phone, such as the messaging system on iPhone. It becomes an obstacle to social activitie…

Everyone who has given up those things has dealt with those pressures. They're certainly not insurmountable, and the payoff is not being in debt with a bunch of stuff that has no value once it leaves the store.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#215

Post by DashRattlesnake » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 4:43 PM UTC

trentnix wrote: post #190

DashRattlesnake wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The scenario you describe simply doesn't pass the smell test. It's pretty well documented. Here are a couple of articles that outline the conditions at Amazon, but I'm sure there are more. http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/life-and-deat... http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-f... You might want to also read up on how temp labor is treated, to see how other workers are treated dis…

But that's the thing - temp labor is, by definition, disposable . A business has little incentive to invest in employees that are likely to turn over frequently, and that's what temp labor does. The links you provided - which read like propaganda, btw - have an insightful message: "mainly all I needed to get hired was to confirm 20 or 30 times that I had not been to prison" So it appears Amazon does struggle to get g…

> But that's the thing - temp labor is, by definition, disposable.

You're moving the goalposts. Your initial post, which I was responding to, said that companies treating their unskilled workers as disposable "doesn't pass the smell test." Now, when confronted with evidence, you claim that same treatment is "by definition." That's not very consistent.

> The links you provided - which read like propaganda, btw

So sorry to impinge on your bubble. Too bad I couldn't burst it.

> So it appears Amazon does struggle to get good help

How did you get there from that quote? That's not the only explanation for wanting employees that haven't been to prison, let alone the most likely one.

> and has systems set up that provide structure. Indeed, it's very controlling to the average information worker that comments on Hacker News, but just might work well within the confines of their warehouse.

These workers are people, and they should not be treated like unthinking machines.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#216

Post by throwaway1892 » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 4:47 PM UTC

denzil_correa wrote: post #198

throwaway1892 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the linked paper: "The stock of refugees has a stronger presence of children; in 2015, for instance, more than half of refugees were under the age of 18." So a part of the migrants would not influence positively the GDP for a few years and put more pressure on public welfare system, as well as public schools and hospitals. Also I think that, whether low or high skilled, when you have high unemployment rate (abov…

Right there in the abstract > a common theme is that, despite the negative short-term impact on recipient economies, they offer potential gains in the long term. In addition, Figure 4.21 (and surrounding text) explicitly mentions the positive longer term growth effects due to migrants. > So a part of the migrants would not influence positively the GDP for a few years and put more pressure on public welfare system, as…

Ok, thank you for the information.

> That is assuming the current system is not good enough.

Where I am, the current system seems sorely lacking, for example regarding the number of homeless, social mobility, existing public infrastructure, education, healthcare...

> Generally, migrants move to countries with opportunities.

Apparently 10% of unemployment is enough of an opportunity for migrant going to Western Europe (Spain: 22.7%, France: 10.5%, Italy: 12.4%, Greece: 25.6, Portugal: 13%...). But I think the migrants going in those countries are mostly refugees, which might not stay long term, so not providing the economic benefits you talked about.

Edit:

So, it is possible that the afflux of refugees in Western Europe will cause a diminution of social benefits since it would strain even more a failing system and not provide any long term economic benefit since they would have gone back home, once the crisis finished (and I hope it will end before long).

Edit II: assuming, of course, that the majority of migrants arriving in Europe are refugees, which seems to be supported by the figures provided by the documents ("The European Union also received an unparalleled number of refugees recently—about 1.25 million first-time asylum " p. 14).

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#217

Post by adamredwoods » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 4:57 PM UTC

jazzyk wrote: post #180

pjc50 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Contributing to the labour force" isn't a religion; it is a necessary condition of life, without which we starve. .. and that's why we turn pensioners out into the snow once they cease contributing. Oh, wait, no we don't, because we recognise that they're human beings and members of society.

Pensioners contributed through all their life to society and when they retire, it is expected that they are taken care of. The OP is talking about cases where you are not in retirement, and not disabled, the society expects you to pull your own weight. It is only fair, no?

What about those without pensions? Homemakers, minimum wage earners? Is it fair to ask them to pull their own weight past retirement age?

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#218

Post by John23832 » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 5:14 PM UTC

kazagistar wrote: post #177

pjc50 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US social security will have no "solvency" problem unless one of two things happens: - political decision(s) are made with the intent of making it insolvent. - a very long period of zero growth, or moderate period of deep recession. Worse or longer than the post-2008 crisis.

Unless you think the world has infinite resources or that technological progress is unbounded and exponential, the second scenario seems exceedingly likey or even inevitable.

You're right, the world does not have infinite resources... But the world has never has infinite resources. So sure some time in the distant future the country, the world, the economy and Social Security will cease to exist... but it's not as immediate as people make it seem.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#219

Post by adamredwoods » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 5:15 PM UTC

jokoon wrote: post #27

I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (…

> What kills me even more is the whole "get motivated" movement. I know I'm ranting but to me, society looks like a giant treading mill. Happiness and the slow, intelligent life have been forgotten in favor of a society of endless work and jobs. Contributing to the labor force has become a religion. The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy. It should not.

I agree with you on some levels, this idea of ultra-productiveness is a religion. I would rather see high levels of productiveness to WORK LESS and ENJOY LIFE more. I'd love to work a 30-hour week so I can pursue other interests.

Instead, ultra-productiveness is causing a burnout loop of WORK MORE to allow more time to WORK MORE.

But this is all pointless. In the future, the amount of lazy people will be astronomical as robots and computers take over 99% of jobs.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#220

Post by jazzyk » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 5:21 PM UTC

adamredwoods wrote: post #217

jazzyk wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pensioners contributed through all their life to society and when they retire, it is expected that they are taken care of. The OP is talking about cases where you are not in retirement, and not disabled, the society expects you to pull your own weight. It is only fair, no?

What about those without pensions? Homemakers, minimum wage earners? Is it fair to ask them to pull their own weight past retirement age?

1. Homemakers typically share and then 'inherit' their spouse's pension (if the spouse dies).

2. Even minimum wage earners have retirement contributions deducted through payroll. Not a lot of money, true, but poor people's pensions are slightly subsidized by higher earners (which is fair, IMO).