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The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry

washingtonpost.com

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Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Au contraire, a substance should only be banned from consumption if it is shown to be highly addictive, and life-threatening if overconsumed. Or something like that. I don't believe something should be banned until presumed completely safe.

>>highly addictive, and life-threatening if overconsumed You mean like caffeine or nicotine?

Little known fact: pure nicotine is hardly addictive. The Mono-amine oxidase inhibitors in tobacco really ramp up its addictive potential.

Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry

#102
post #81
post #68

> Schedule I substances are those that have the following findings: > 1. The drug or other substance has a high potential for abuse. > 2. The drug or other substance has no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States. > 3. There is a lack of accepted safety for use of the drug or other substance under medical supervision Kratom doesn't meet any of those requirements, let alone all three. The sche…

>>over 3x as many Americans who were killed in Iraq in total - so 3 Iraq wars per year. I know what you mean, but it really bothers me that you are only counting American deaths. The total number of Iraqi deaths arising from the Iraq war is highly disputed, but it seems to be somewhere between 150,000 and a bit over 1,000,000, depending on the survey and whether it only counts direct deaths of combatants vs. surveys…

Because this is a matter of U.S. government policy, the responsibility is to the people of the United States.

Seems pretty simple to me.

Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry

#103
post #68

> Schedule I substances are those that have the following findings: > 1. The drug or other substance has a high potential for abuse. > 2. The drug or other substance has no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States. > 3. There is a lack of accepted safety for use of the drug or other substance under medical supervision Kratom doesn't meet any of those requirements, let alone all three. The sche…

It would appear that refined sugar fits this profile more than kratom does.

Sucrose is used widely in medical treatment in the United States.

Use of sucrose under medical supervision is unfathomably safe. You can literally feel, in your hand, the quantity of sucrose which is unsuitable for your diet.

I'm not sure what would qualify as abuse, but I'm pretty sure they don't consider all recreational alcohol use to be abuse even though a pretty large chunk of the people who drink it are alcoholics.

Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry

#104
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong evidence? Citations please.

On mobile now, so can't give examples, but do a search on Google scholar and you really will find plenty evidence there

Really? I tried doing this search and can't find much. I'm pretty up on the state of the scientific literature on kratom, because I'm in the industry, curious, and have been actively working at improving the dreadful wikipedia article.

There's this case, http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924933811... , but it's a case of one. There are some cases of simultaneous kratom and alcohol dependence, but that's not the same thing.

Even the peer reviewed evidence for kratom working for opiate withdrawal is quite weak, despite boatloads of anecdotal evidence. There are studies in mice and some observational studies, but nothing that meets the standards of an FDA clinical trial. Kratom has just not really been seriously studied.

If I'm missing some papers or a body of research, please let me know.

Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry

#105
post #68

> Schedule I substances are those that have the following findings: > 1. The drug or other substance has a high potential for abuse. > 2. The drug or other substance has no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States. > 3. There is a lack of accepted safety for use of the drug or other substance under medical supervision Kratom doesn't meet any of those requirements, let alone all three. The sche…

>> Schedule I substances are those that have the following >>findings:

>> 1. The drug or other substance has a high potential for >>abuse.

>> 2. The drug or other substance has no currently accepted >>medical use in treatment in the United States.

>> 3. There is a lack of accepted safety for use of the >>drug or other substance under medical supervision

>Kratom doesn't meet any of those requirements, let alone >all three. The scheduling process requires reform, and >this impacts a large part of the world since drug >scheduling (and patent protection on pharma) are part of >American trade agreements.

Mitragynine, the major alkaloid identified from Kratom, has been reported as a partial opioid agonist producing similar or more potent effects than morphine. An interesting minor alkaloid of Kratom, 7-hydroxymitragynine, has been reported to be significantly more potent than morphine. (Actually, in studies, mitragynine was shown to be 13x more potent than morphine, and 7-hydroxymitragynine to be 4x more potent than mitragynine, as per Vicknasingam et al 2010 in the International Journal of Drug Policy, and Matsumoto et al., 2005, Life Sciences). Both Kratom alkaloids are reported to activate supraspinal mu- and delta- opioid receptors, explaining their use by chronic narcotics users to ameliorate opioid withdrawal symptoms.

The problem here isn't getting rid of a "legal high." Kratom should not be: it carries all the risks of opiates, and may have an independent mechanism of seizure activity. Physiologic dependence has also been reported, as well as thyroid dysfunction, liver damage, and if mixed with another opioid agonist (tramadol is easy to score on the street, as a very common med for diabetic neuropathic pain) it'll put you right in the ground, as has been seen in a number of deaths in Sweden.

You're right it doesn't meet all three criteria, although it certainly meets 1 and 2. 3 is a valid basis for conducting for medical research, to determine proper pharmacokinetics and see what safe usage scenarios are.

However, it's a serious drug, and needs to be regulated as such. It should not be Schedule I, the DEA's favorite way of creating job security for itself, but it seems like the opposition position that has developed is yelling "keep it freely available," which is unconscionable.

Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry

#106
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>over 3x as many Americans who were killed in Iraq in total - so 3 Iraq wars per year. I know what you mean, but it really bothers me that you are only counting American deaths. The total number of Iraqi deaths arising from the Iraq war is highly disputed, but it seems to be somewhere between 150,000 and a bit over 1,000,000, depending on the survey and whether it only counts direct deaths of combatants vs. surveys…

Because this is a matter of U.S. government policy, the responsibility is to the people of the United States. Seems pretty simple to me.

All humans have the responsibility to not kill each other.

Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry

#107
post #11

Paranoid speculation: The DEA was given a secret brief to ban a substance that would help addicts withdraw from an addiction. Consider who actually benefits from this ban: Various policing powers, and drug cartels, who depend on addicts staying that way. Having written that, I don't believe it. But on the other hand . . .

More likely the 12-steppers and religious zealots who feel that all recreational drug/alcohol induced highs are wrong, and should be stopped/illegal. There's been a lot of fighting against anything that works to end addiction through medical research/means. In addition to those who think all recreational drugs should be outlawed.

It's entirely possible for it to be both.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootleggers_and_Baptists

Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry

#108
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because this is a matter of U.S. government policy, the responsibility is to the people of the United States. Seems pretty simple to me.

All humans have the responsibility to not kill each other.

Who said that? Some times humans think other humans have a responsibility to kill eachother; I'm guessing you sometimes agree.

Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry

#109
post #3
post #2

The DEA reversing course due to public outcry (and common sense)?! What alternate reality have we slipped into?! Previously: DEA will ban chemicals contained in kratom, a popular herbal supplement https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12410083 Call to Action to save Kratom plant from DEA's uninformed Schedule I decision https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12438605

It really isn't a course reversal, the people holding the purse strings seemed to have forced the DEA's hand into extending the period of public comment. IIRC something similar happened with MDMA. Hopefully folks like myself who have used Kratom to alleviate opiate withdrawal to great success will come forward and comment. Anecdotally speaking, there are folks who have used kratom to ween themselves off of maintenanc…

I'd argue that an opiate naive individual on 10g of red vein would be feeling VERY mad nice, considering that dose has me, not opiate naive, feeling mad nice. Definitely at the very least as strong a feeling as codeine

Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, unfortunately, have extensive experience with kratom and kratom extracts. Today, I am 5 years clean of kratom and all narcotics. I bought the "kratom is non-addictive and can improve your life" line fully as a teenager. What ensued was indistinguishable from a full blown opiate addiction. I ended up in in-patient detox to finally quit and, five years later, have not regained all that I had lost during that time. J…

I only have about 4 years off and on experience with powdered leaf but would never touch the extracts. It is similar to the difference between having a single beer and drinking vodka straight from the bottle. Kratom has helped me a lot with sticking to an exercise routine and sleep. I try to never exceed 8 grams of powdered leaf a day. When I hit that, I taper off and take a break for 1-2 months.

how does your tapering schedule work? If you don't mind me asking.
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