As with all things in Washington, I'd follow the money. I'd wager someone with a lot of milk to spill lobbied hard to get the scheduling move reversed. I wouldn't buy for a second that the needs of recovering addicts had anything to do with it. The DEA has made it abundantly clear that it gives exactly zero fucks about the facts regarding the narcotics it regulates or the consequences for lay people of their regulation.
The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry
61–70 of 127 posts
Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry
#62As with all things in Washington, I'd follow the money. I'd wager someone with a lot of milk to spill lobbied hard to get the scheduling move reversed. I wouldn't buy for a second that the needs of recovering addicts had anything to do with it. The DEA has made it abundantly clear that it gives exactly zero fucks about the facts regarding the narcotics that regulate or the consequences for lay people of their regulation.
Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
Kratom withdrawal is unpleasant. Debilitating withdrawal is uncommon in people that aren't taking heroic doses to self medicate their addictions to other opiates, therefore punting the withdrawal symptoms down the road. Acute kratom withdrawal is shorter than for long acting pharmaceutical opiates, but post acute withdrawal syndrome (PAWS) can be dragged out because kratom has some poorly documented and poorly unders…
I, unfortunately, have extensive experience with kratom and kratom extracts. Today, I am 5 years clean of kratom and all narcotics. I bought the "kratom is non-addictive and can improve your life" line fully as a teenager. What ensued was indistinguishable from a full blown opiate addiction. I ended up in in-patient detox to finally quit and, five years later, have not regained all that I had lost during that time. J…
Absolutely. Propaganda from both sides of the debate results in confusing and sometimes harmful information. I don't claim that kratom is without harm. I claim that from a public health perspective, kratom reduces harm by trading off with drugs that cause more harm.
Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
In medicine, you have to show a drug is more effective (or as effective) and is as safe as existing drugs for a purpose in order to get FDA approval. Why not take a similar stance on drugs for recreational purposes? If it is as safe or safer than alcohol or tobacco, approve it.
Tobacco and alcohol are unusually dangerous in the scheme of drugs. I don't disagree with your intention to relax restrictions behind drugs, but if this logic was followed, nearly every drug would be legalized, which is not the goal of the government of the USA.
If that is true, and your end goal is truly safety, why doesn't the FDA and DEA advocate for the criminalization of those drugs as well? I have been told that the argument is that prohibition caused violence and crime, but so does the prohibition of heroin so that logic doesn't seem to hold.
Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry
#65I'm not American so forgive me if this is a silly question but isn't/shouldn't the responsibility for evaluating the safety and approval of foods and drugs belong to the FDA? Isn't the DEA being in charge of this like the FBI passing laws? Why does the DEA have this power?
The DEA has the power to schedule newly developed, dangerous synthetic drugs without immediate congressional oversight, the idea being that chemists can design and bring to market new, dangerous drugs more quickly than Congress is able to act. They overstepped their authority in attempting to schedule kratom, as it is old, natural, and not particularly dangerous.
The idea that law enforcement agencies must be able to write their own law on the fly is the root of a lot of evil, not just in this case. Usually, they're not really in a hurry. They just want less oversight.
We can't wait for Congress because Congress is too slow! (Well, this one does make some sense as Congress seems to be deadlocked all the time...)
We need warrantless wiretaps and NSLs because it takes too long to get a warrant!
We need to detain people without a warrant because, again, we have no time to go find a judge!
We need to torture these terrorists because the next attack might come any minute and who doesn't like Jack Bauer?
Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
Kratom withdrawal is unpleasant. Debilitating withdrawal is uncommon in people that aren't taking heroic doses to self medicate their addictions to other opiates, therefore punting the withdrawal symptoms down the road. Acute kratom withdrawal is shorter than for long acting pharmaceutical opiates, but post acute withdrawal syndrome (PAWS) can be dragged out because kratom has some poorly documented and poorly unders…
I, unfortunately, have extensive experience with kratom and kratom extracts. Today, I am 5 years clean of kratom and all narcotics. I bought the "kratom is non-addictive and can improve your life" line fully as a teenager. What ensued was indistinguishable from a full blown opiate addiction. I ended up in in-patient detox to finally quit and, five years later, have not regained all that I had lost during that time. J…
I only have about 4 years off and on experience with powdered leaf but would never touch the extracts. It is similar to the difference between having a single beer and drinking vodka straight from the bottle.
Kratom has helped me a lot with sticking to an exercise routine and sleep. I try to never exceed 8 grams of powdered leaf a day. When I hit that, I taper off and take a break for 1-2 months.
Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry
#67I don't agree with the ban, but it seems like the risks of kratom are not discussed, and in fact even downplayed by saying hey, it's just a plant. To help me be an informed reader I would like WaPo to mention: 1) If you search kratom withdrawal there are a ton of anecdotal reports that sound pretty unpleasant if not debilitating. 2) What is the frequency of severe side effects, as best as can be known? 3) That "natur…
Most modern nations accept opiate substitution therapy (OST) as the most effective way to treat opiod addiction. The entire premise of OST is that you substitute a bad opiate for a "less bad" opiate - and Kratom is looking like one of the best "least bad" candidates we've ever seen. Nobody is delusional about the effects of Kratom or downsides - all drugs have downsides. I've never seen it mentioned or recommended ou…
Do you think it's the Subutex and Methodone manufacturers using legal muscle since they can't patent and monopolize this alternative? Reckitt Benckiser, maker of Suboxone has fought hard against generics being available.
I will save my criticism of the moral implication of such a position because the English language doesn't provide me enough words to express it.
Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry
#68> Schedule I substances are those that have the following findings:
> 1. The drug or other substance has a high potential for abuse.
> 2. The drug or other substance has no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States.
> 3. There is a lack of accepted safety for use of the drug or other substance under medical supervision
Kratom doesn't meet any of those requirements, let alone all three. The scheduling process requires reform, and this impacts a large part of the world since drug scheduling (and patent protection on pharma) are part of American trade agreements.
Almost every action the DEA has taken has worsened the opioid epidemic and benefited the Mexican cartels. They didn't require doctor licensing or tracking for lower-level pain medication, they were then slow to crack down on the pill mills - once a large part of the population was addicted, they were then very slow to license more methadone programs and suboxone doctors for the fresh wave of addicts, and now they want to shut down one of the only free and working treatment options (Kratom)
The only result you can expect from the DEA's actions are more and more opioid deaths. It is up to 18,000 a year now - over 3x as many Americans who were killed in Iraq in total - so 3 Iraq wars per year.
The NYTimes has an excellent series of stories on the opioid epidemic - the video of the woman overdosing in a supermarket while her child attempts to wake her up are shattering:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/28/us/addicted-parents-get-th...
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/08/opinion/sunday/how-doctors...
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/13/well/family/opioids-may-in...
Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry
#69I don't agree with the ban, but it seems like the risks of kratom are not discussed, and in fact even downplayed by saying hey, it's just a plant. To help me be an informed reader I would like WaPo to mention: 1) If you search kratom withdrawal there are a ton of anecdotal reports that sound pretty unpleasant if not debilitating. 2) What is the frequency of severe side effects, as best as can be known? 3) That "natur…
Most modern nations accept opiate substitution therapy (OST) as the most effective way to treat opiod addiction. The entire premise of OST is that you substitute a bad opiate for a "less bad" opiate - and Kratom is looking like one of the best "least bad" candidates we've ever seen. Nobody is delusional about the effects of Kratom or downsides - all drugs have downsides. I've never seen it mentioned or recommended ou…
Your first paragraph I completely agree, Kratom is promising to be safer than the leading opiate substitution medicines (ie methadone)
But
> it has no value as a recreational drug.
is completely wrong. See the erowid page [1].
Some of the positive effects (Simultaneous stimulation & sedation, Feelings of euphoria, Useful with physical labor, Low doses can result in a lasting "glow" in some people, increases sociability and talkativeness) have high recreational value. Personally I find it great as an alternative to harsher stimulants for getting a lot of work done.
Re: The DEA is withdrawing a proposal to ban another plant citing public outcry
#70I don't agree with the ban, but it seems like the risks of kratom are not discussed, and in fact even downplayed by saying hey, it's just a plant. To help me be an informed reader I would like WaPo to mention: 1) If you search kratom withdrawal there are a ton of anecdotal reports that sound pretty unpleasant if not debilitating. 2) What is the frequency of severe side effects, as best as can be known? 3) That "natur…
Most modern nations accept opiate substitution therapy (OST) as the most effective way to treat opiod addiction. The entire premise of OST is that you substitute a bad opiate for a "less bad" opiate - and Kratom is looking like one of the best "least bad" candidates we've ever seen. Nobody is delusional about the effects of Kratom or downsides - all drugs have downsides. I've never seen it mentioned or recommended ou…
>Nobody is delusional about the effects of Kratom or downsides
Not true. There are many articles being written in the same spirit as the Washington Post. They are using a headline to discourage caution because something is a plant - that's false and delusional.