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The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

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Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#331

Post by ptaipale »

sbmassey wrote: post #283
ptaipale wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course. Current youth generation's pop songs are always bad (mostly). "The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. " - Socrates, circa 470 BC

Socrates would have been less than 1 year old in 470 BC, so I guess he was speaking about himself and his pals.

Yes right, my error, should have said this is attributed to Socrates, born circa 470 BC. So if he said it, it was likely somewhere around 400 BC.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#332

Post by MichaelMoser123 »

Ma8ee wrote: post #322
MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Randy Newman says that racism and bigotry are not just limited to southern politicians and that it is a universal problem, at least that's what he says with 'rednecks'; i think that Randy would really deserve the price, but you can't get one for humour/satire, as satire is considered to be a minor muse. My guess is that Dylan got the price because his generation is aging and they want a statement of that it all reall…

It did matter in a larger sense. This is a so much better world than it was 60 years ago. We still have a long way to go, but imagine if we wouldn't have taken all the small steps that actually were taken, and imagine if we wouldn't have had the leaders and singers that gave us a direction.

the counterculture was very vocal and very interesting phenomenon, did a majority of the young people of the day subscribe to it? I don't think so. Did they really change things in a larger sense? Don't know, might be 'too early to say'.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#333

Post by dexterdog »

kurthr wrote: post #318
dexterdog wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black unemployment peaked at 16 when the national rate was 10. It dropped to 9.1 when the national rate is 5 so blacks did significantly worse than society as a whole.

I am confused. How can a decrease in unemployment from 16% to 9 not be an objective improvement for american blacks in years? Do they look back from todays "hellscape" recovery and remember the wonder days when we wondered how many people would lose their jobs or homes to foreclosure? Or did they rejoice when black RNC head Michael Steele was forced to kowtow Rush Limbaugh after Obama was elected?

Because unemployment improved for everybody, but it improved for a significantly smaller percentage of blacks that it did for the population as a whole.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#334

Post by dev360 »

hackuser wrote: post #297
dev360 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, he goes into length explaining how he created his own versions of Ballad of John Henry and "Key to the highway". You are missing the point. "Hey Joe" is thought to be inspired by Little Sadie. Its not about ripping off, its about telling the same story in a different way - story telling.

Based on what I know about folk music - at one time I listened to a bunch of it and learned about its traditions, but I'm hardly an expert - that's not true. By that tradition, folk songs are for everyone to play and sing, not only for a professional to perform for you. There's a communal, shared, DIY philosophy behind it; it's art by and for regular people (folk art), to be shared; it's not about profit, and intelle…

>> There's a communal, shared, DIY philosophy behind it; it's art by and for regular people (folk art), to be shared;

Yes, I agree. I guess I dont see the conflict. If you play any of these songs, change a few verses, some melody and some chords, then you can claim the copyright just like Bob Dylan did. That is what I think he is trying to get at in that speech.

Notice how is says the following in his copyright claim:

"Basis of Claim: New Matter: rev. melody & new music." [1]

There are many artists that have copyright claims for the same essential song title. Search for Walking Blues, John Hardy or any old fiddle tune like Shady Grove, Blackberry blossom, man of constant sorrow etc. There are a ton of these songs out there where anybody can make their own mark and claim the copyright because literally everybody does it.

Try doing that with 'Times are a changin' and I can guarantee you its not the same unspoken code because its not one of those tunes that have been passed down by generations of musicians and told and retold. The bar will likely be much higher for you to claim your artistic expression on that copyright.

That was the point I was trying to make here. I mainly objected to your 'Can I sample one without his permission?' since I don't think its the same thing.

[1] http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=14&ti=1,14...

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#335

Post by hackuser »

dev360 wrote: post #334
hackuser wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on what I know about folk music - at one time I listened to a bunch of it and learned about its traditions, but I'm hardly an expert - that's not true. By that tradition, folk songs are for everyone to play and sing, not only for a professional to perform for you. There's a communal, shared, DIY philosophy behind it; it's art by and for regular people (folk art), to be shared; it's not about profit, and intelle…

>> There's a communal, shared, DIY philosophy behind it; it's art by and for regular people (folk art), to be shared; Yes, I agree. I guess I dont see the conflict. If you play any of these songs, change a few verses, some melody and some chords, then you can claim the copyright just like Bob Dylan did. That is what I think he is trying to get at in that speech. Notice how is says the following in his copyright claim…

Thanks for your thoughtful response

> I mainly objected to your 'Can I sample one without his permission?' since I don't think its the same thing.

I understand your point and I agree that's the reality of it, but I'm saying that isn't how it has to be. It isn't the same thing in some qualitative ways, as you say, but mainly because Dylan chooses to make it different. Like all the FOSS developers, all those Grateful Dead bootlegs, and all those traditional folk tunes, and some folk singers (and other musicians) in the recorded era, he could have made his libre. My guess is that like Tim Berners-Lee, Linus Torvalds, and many others, he wouldn't be homeless, that is unless he prefers to keep traveling.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#336

Post by nl »

dexterdog wrote: post #333
kurthr wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am confused. How can a decrease in unemployment from 16% to 9 not be an objective improvement for american blacks in years? Do they look back from todays "hellscape" recovery and remember the wonder days when we wondered how many people would lose their jobs or homes to foreclosure? Or did they rejoice when black RNC head Michael Steele was forced to kowtow Rush Limbaugh after Obama was elected?

Because unemployment improved for everybody, but it improved for a significantly smaller percentage of blacks that it did for the population as a whole.

It dropped ~6.9% for blacks, ~5% for the population as a whole.

Prior to the financial crisis it was 4.6% overall, 8.3% for blacks[1].

So now it is 8.9% worse that the per-crisis number for all employment (ie, (5-4.6)/4.6) vs 8.5% worse for blacks (ie (9-8.3)/8.3).

Sure, I'm sure you can play with the numbers to give it the spin you want, and I can spin them the other way.

But it's pretty difficult to argue that it is significantly worse now than it was before.

[1] http://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/race-and-ethnicity/archive/r...

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#337

Post by nl »

circlefavshape wrote: post #21

Despite being a massive admirer of Dylan's work, I'm not sure that I'm good with this > for having created new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition There's no doubt he did this, but ... do songs count as literature? I'm not really sure they do, and much as I love the songs, the lyrics by themselves don't have anything like the impact (on me at least) of top-notch poetry

"Here comes the story of the Hurricane"[1] sure seems closer to a story than modern song writing.

[1] http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/bobdylan/hurricane.html

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#338

Post by andrepd »

wildmusings wrote: post #247
v64 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Republican Party has failed to field a credible candidate for quite some time. If you believe in science and equal rights for women and minorities, those damn "elites" are all we have.

Mitt Romney was a very good candidate, except for his ultimate lack of fight. If you really believe that women and minorities don't have equal rights, then I can only urge you to dig a little deeper. Gender wage discrimination is a made-up problem, the statistics that you hear don't control for career choice, hours-worked, positions-sought, etc. The problem with our police force is that it's not professionalized once…

>SJWism is a cancer on Western civilization and it's one of the most pressing problems we face, because it prevents us from having honest conversations about any other problem. Debates these days always devolve into accusations of racism/sexism/"ableism", or whatever the latest boogeyman "ism" is.

Maybe if you look outside your bubble aka in the internet you can come to realise in the real world this isn't nearly a big and widespread of a problem as some people make it out to be.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#339

Post by andrepd »

wildmusings wrote: post #272
v64 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, Romney has been relatively much more sane than other Republicans. I would have even voted for him if he was able to run as Massachusetts Governor Romney and not Pandering to the Insane Right Wing Romney. But he's certainly an outlier among the present class of Republicans. I think the Republican Party's pro-life position to be discriminatory against women. No one can force you to be an organ donor.…

> Immigration is a huge issue, and I really thought the GOP was turning the corner on it, but it's all fallen apart since the GOP decided it would rather pander to an angry white base. Amnesty for current illegal immigrants + improved border security and visa enforcement, so that it never happens again, is the obvious answer to the immigration problem. What many people don't know is that the American people were sold…

>the religions are the source of our moral values, even for most of the non-believers among us.

I disagree in absolute. In my view religions do far more harm than good, and to claim religious thought is the basis of morality even for non believers is somewhere between condescending and insulting.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#340

Post by wildmusings »

andrepd wrote: post #338
wildmusings wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mitt Romney was a very good candidate, except for his ultimate lack of fight. If you really believe that women and minorities don't have equal rights, then I can only urge you to dig a little deeper. Gender wage discrimination is a made-up problem, the statistics that you hear don't control for career choice, hours-worked, positions-sought, etc. The problem with our police force is that it's not professionalized once…

>SJWism is a cancer on Western civilization and it's one of the most pressing problems we face, because it prevents us from having honest conversations about any other problem. Debates these days always devolve into accusations of racism/sexism/"ableism", or whatever the latest boogeyman "ism" is. Maybe if you look outside your bubble aka in the internet you can come to realise in the real world this isn't nearly a b…

>Maybe if you look outside your bubble aka in the internet you can come to realise in the real world this isn't nearly a big and widespread of a problem as some people make it out to be.

Ah, but it was in meatspace that I became alarmed by them. I saw them ruin my alma mater, go after freedom of association, smear everyone who dared oppose them racist. I saw the spinelessness of leaders who instead of fighting back would just capitulate. I saw the Obama administration embrace their cause and turn college sexual assault tribunals into modern Salem witch trials, where a mere accusation is enough to ruin a life forever.

This has spread beyond academia. I saw what they did to Brendan Eich in Mozilla, I saw the chill that has set in among my conservative friends, who dare not speak their opinions lest they be outcast from their industries.

Maybe it's you who needs to step out of whatever bubble you're in.

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