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Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

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Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#181

Post by driverdan »

mamon wrote: post #142
vmarsy wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent specifically mentioned Americans. It's much easier to find the right and good ingredients for a recipe in France than is it in the U.S. Go to any supermarket in France and buy flour for instance: you'll find type T45, T55, T65, T80, T110, T150 [1]. And professional pastry recipes will tell you exactly what type of flour in what quantities. In the U.S. you will only find "All Purpose flour". I know French p…

This is higly correlated with regulatory laws governing agriculture in US and Europe. EU has much more strict policies, limits on pesticide use, no GMO rule, plus specific laws to protect traditional (sometimes centuries old) product recipies from being faked by inustrial-scale producers, replacing natural ingredients with chemicals. That's why food generaly tastes much better in Europe.

> limits on pesticide use, no GMO rule

Neither impact flavor.

> replacing natural ingredients with chemicals

You do realize that "natural ingredients" are chemicals too right? Everything is made up of chemicals.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#182

Post by dagw »

Fordrus wrote: post #178
dagw wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so sure. I'm the sort of person that quite enjoys going to expensive restaurants and tries to keep up with what's happening in that world. And I've never heard anyone say "don't go to restaurant X, they might have a good wine list and the starters and main courses was great, but their deserts are terrible". At worst they'll say "when you go to X, don't bother ordering deserts". The truth is that while having…

In terms of reputation, you may well be correct, but then thinking of the restaurant's bottom line, the generally agreed-upon admonition , "Don't bother ordering dessert there," is a devastatingly horrible outcome.

Are desserts that big a part of the bottom line? Surely as long you order drinks and a few courses I doubt the restaurant cares too much one way or the other if you then order desert.

the generally agreed-upon admonition , "Don't bother ordering dessert there," is a devastatingly horrible outcome.

Is it? I would say that about many of my favorite places to eat.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#183

Post by emodendroket »

logicallee wrote: post #156
emodendroket wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Software development consists of creating a new recipe every day: you are NOT following well-defined steps. If your job is customizing CRM installations maybe not so much.

arguably that is not 'programming'. What I said probably doesn't apply to every IT field.

Why not, especially when we're lumping together everything from baking cupcakes to preparing a tiered wedding cake?

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#184

Post by coldtea »

hughes wrote: post #14
bootload wrote: post #2

"the salaries of pastry makers in the Chicago area do not appear to have budged much, if at all. The key to this puzzle tells us a lot about why the American economy isn’t necessarily behaving the way workers have traditionally assumed. ... Employers, according to those in the industry, have increasingly turned to less experienced workers to ensure the flow of sweets" The drive to employ cheaper, okay workers in acti…

Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs. With software development it's a little different - it's entirely possible for a more…

>Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs.

Yeah, god forbid the actual quality of the pastry comes into play, and that the restaurant/bakery/etc takes pride in its output.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#185

Post by coldtea »

riskable wrote: post #38
zanny wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheap, inexperienced pastry chefs can also ruin a restaurants reputation if they screw up too badly. You get the quality you pay for.

Ah, but a pastry chef can only disappoint so many customers at once. A single stupid mistake by a software developer can impact millions . The Yahoo leak alone was half a billion users . That's a lot of dough!

>Ah, but a pastry chef can only disappoint so many customers at once.

Bad food incidents tend to travel by word of mouth, and they can even hit the papers (bad review etc).

Besides, a pastry place has a much smaller client base than an internet service.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#186

Post by coldtea »

steveax wrote: post #124
sosborn wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real value of an experienced chef is in the creation and perfection of a recipe. Once that is achieved, a less experienced chef can churn the pastries out indefinitely - assuming they stick to the recipe.

It's not that easy. Ambient temperatures change, humidity levels, flour retains more moisture. Small changes in these things can make huge differences in the finished goods. A skilled baker will read these factors and adjust.

Reminds one of that Breaking Bad episode...

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#187

Post by ido »

dagw wrote: post #182
Fordrus wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of reputation, you may well be correct, but then thinking of the restaurant's bottom line, the generally agreed-upon admonition , "Don't bother ordering dessert there," is a devastatingly horrible outcome.

Are desserts that big a part of the bottom line? Surely as long you order drinks and a few courses I doubt the restaurant cares too much one way or the other if you then order desert. the generally agreed-upon admonition , "Don't bother ordering dessert there," is a devastatingly horrible outcome. Is it? I would say that about many of my favorite places to eat.

There was actually a (NYT article iirc) HN post about it a while back - deserts are apparently often very high margin and main courses loss leaders.

EDIT: apparently I was wrong and it was the other way around! https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/02/10/why-r...

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#188

Post by coldtea »

carterehsmith wrote: post #128
wavefunction wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree with you completely. From your first line to your last, I can't disagree more or more strongly. "Edible" is not a sufficient performance by a decent amateur baker, let alone a pastry chef who likely also knows things quite intimately beyond cupcakes like working with sugar and various frostings, fondants, meringues, flans, pies, tarts, cakes, puddings and custards and so on... When you add that to…

Dude. You bought, hooker and sink, some bullshit ad from the local 'artisanal bakery'. Sorry but there are no 10-generation artisans labouring endlessly to bring you your $5 cupcake. Its just 15-year old kids working to get some money towards college.

>Dude. You bought, hooker and sink, some bullshit ad from the local 'artisanal bakery'

The world is larger and has far more tradition and expertise in food that your local USA neighborhood, "dude".

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#189

Post by coldtea »

carterehsmith wrote: post #126
emodendroket wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like if it were really that easy there wouldn't be any need for the elaborate system of culinary schools and apprenticeships at restaurants that teach high-level versions of these skills.

I just want to say that there is a misconception here. 'Chef' indeed needs to go to school and may take years to earn the title. 'Pastry chef' is not a 'chef'. There is no culinary school involved, or required to be pastry chef.

You keep using this word "pastry". I don't think it means what you think it means.

For one, pastries are not relegated to the simple stuff a 6-month training guy that put on an apron can make.

There are pastry shops that produce stuff as hard, if not harder, than what the best restaurant chefs produce.

In fact, pastries can be challenging even for top chefs otherwise very knowledgable in regular cooking.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#190

Post by kuschku »

coldtea wrote: post #184
hughes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs. With software development it's a little different - it's entirely possible for a more…

> Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs. Yeah, god forbid the actual quality of the pastry comes into play, and that the rest…

This is exactly the worst part about the kind of capitalism that’s been popular in recent decades.

It’s all about profits now, and pride in quality is gone completely.

In the US it’s already in all aspects of life, in Europe it has only caught the large companies yet, but it’s something we’ll have to fight globally.

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