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Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

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Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#101

Post by eli_gottlieb »

cheriot wrote: post #63
blawson wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think by that logic no one values high quality food? A croissant in Paris is probably about 2 euros as well. If we both agree the French tend to do croissants better, and care about it more, so how come theirs don't cost significantly more?

Perhaps there's more people in Paris that know how to make awesome croissants. Maybe it's considered "fancy" food in the US and marked up accordingly. There's a lot of economic levers to push.

>Perhaps there's more people in Paris that know how to make awesome croissants. Maybe it's considered "fancy" food in the US and marked up accordingly.

True, but I can still make far superior chocolate-chip cookies (an American staple pastry) at home, for cheap, than I've ever had from 90% of stores and bakeries.

Try out the following recipe with the addition of half a lemon's juice, switching out all the sugar for brown sugar. You can either use the full load of chocolate chips, or substitute dark chocolate, or do like I do and half the chocolates so you can enjoy the cookie.

http://allrecipes.com/recipe/10813/best-chocolate-chip-cooki...

(Mind, I might be an edge-case, since I've practiced baking since I was five years old.)

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#102

Post by pcurve »

Chefs and cooks generally don't command high wage because there is plenty of competition, including those who don't cook for living.

There is a limit as to how much people will pay to have other people prepare meals for them. After all, people can cook meals for themselves if all else fails.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#103

Post by eli_gottlieb »

sbuttgereit wrote: post #18
ensignavenger wrote: post #6

Maybe because they are only in demand at the current price point, but as soon as the price goes up, people switch to 'substitute goods'?

Not only for the labor, but for the product as well. I know few people that dislike pastries... ok maybe they like some kinds more than others, but still... But I know few people that like pastries at any price; at least not with any frequency. Once that price goes up too much they do look for substitute goods. Maybe mass-produces Hostess-style stuff: not great, but sufficient and cheap. At some point, this too will…

>But I know few people that like pastries at any price; at least not with any frequency. Once that price goes up too much they do look for substitute goods. Maybe mass-produces Hostess-style stuff: not great, but sufficient and cheap.

Eehhh. I think there's a huge range of quality that's underserved between the fancy cookies, over-sweetened brownies, and pretentious scones at most cafes and the fancy croissants and cakes at "real bakeries". In fact, you can tell there's an underserved market because most of the "high-quality", expensive offerings are actually pretty bad, but dressed-up nicely.

You know what? I think my comments in this thread might be a hint that someday, when the economy grows again for non-tech people, I should go ahead, learn to wake up really fucking early, and try starting a bakery.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#104

Post by internaut »

clock_tower wrote: post #79
internaut wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you find the idea of a wage fixing cartel so bizarre? It's a phenomenon as old as labour markets themselves. The employer does not want a market for labour, they want a steady supply of workers for the lowest price. Since there are fewer employers than workers, it is easier to coordinate a plot against them. Also when the economy becomes more centralized and bigger companies swallow up smaller ones, you should…

Think about how people won't buy turnips (or consumer goods in general) if the price is higher than they expect -- even if that's the break-even price. I think something similar's happening with employers: they won't pay more than $80-$100,000 for a programmer, the market-clearing price for programmers is somewhere around $130,000, and thus you get a STEM shortage. And this applies pretty much everywhere; it's astoni…

That's what I think as well.

Why are they motivated to do this though CT? I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle.

Labour costs are tiny fractions of these company's profits, and code stays 'fresh' for decades. You can easily get leaps in productivity that save a huge quantity of money for the company by just thinking a little harder. And it should be the case that smaller teams are better teams.

Why do programmers even make wages similar to the middle class? Their work isn't remotely comparable to lawyers or dentists. Surely million dollar salaries should be the norm. The practice of acquhires suggest a starting salary ought to be around 1.5 million dollars.

Even if it was one tenth of that...

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#105

Post by carterehsmith »

emodendroket wrote: post #68
hughes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs. With software development it's a little different - it's entirely possible for a more…

Do you really find it hard to believe that a more experienced pastry chef can make better pastries? I think this is the same frustrating myopia that makes people assume they all could easily write software the way you do except in reverse.

Let's be honest. Making pastry is not really hard.

You can spend 30 minutes learning on youtube, and you will be able to make some basic pastry. It will not be glorious but it might be edible.

Otherplace in this thread somebody was quoting some pastry chef claiming that "it takes months" to learn to do cupcakes or whatever.

That "months" is a definition of low-skill job.

Which is why pastry chefs have minimum-wage salaries basically. Btw, the "chef" moniker here is kind of silly.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#106

Post by skybrian »

dwc wrote: post #41
hughes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs. With software development it's a little different - it's entirely possible for a more…

You left out a plausible (and common) option: a more expensive pastry chef can make pastries that sell better. This is what's in play when you see a line out the door at some shop. The prices may not be that much more expensive, but the quality is that much better.

That might be true for a shop, but fancy restaurants have limited upside. If they're filling the seats, more demand doesn't matter that much - it just makes it harder to get a reservation. So above a reasonable level of quality, profit margin will matter more to the business.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#107

Post by wtvanhest »

skybrian wrote: post #106
dwc wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You left out a plausible (and common) option: a more expensive pastry chef can make pastries that sell better. This is what's in play when you see a line out the door at some shop. The prices may not be that much more expensive, but the quality is that much better.

That might be true for a shop, but fancy restaurants have limited upside. If they're filling the seats, more demand doesn't matter that much - it just makes it harder to get a reservation. So above a reasonable level of quality, profit margin will matter more to the business.

This analogy also applies to software development. The bigger the company, the harder it is to justify a high priced incremental software hire.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#108

Post by wavefunction »

carterehsmith wrote: post #105
emodendroket wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really find it hard to believe that a more experienced pastry chef can make better pastries? I think this is the same frustrating myopia that makes people assume they all could easily write software the way you do except in reverse.

Let's be honest. Making pastry is not really hard. You can spend 30 minutes learning on youtube, and you will be able to make some basic pastry. It will not be glorious but it might be edible. Otherplace in this thread somebody was quoting some pastry chef claiming that "it takes months" to learn to do cupcakes or whatever. That "months" is a definition of low-skill job. Which is why pastry chefs have minimum-wage sa…

I have to disagree with you completely.

From your first line to your last, I can't disagree more or more strongly.

"Edible" is not a sufficient performance by a decent amateur baker, let alone a pastry chef who likely also knows things quite intimately beyond cupcakes like working with sugar and various frostings, fondants, meringues, flans, pies, tarts, cakes, puddings and custards and so on...

When you add that to razor thin profit margins intolerant to waste such that a "recompile" is completely unacceptable then you start to talk about the real aspects of skillful pastry chefs.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#109

Post by wfo »

carterehsmith wrote: post #105
emodendroket wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really find it hard to believe that a more experienced pastry chef can make better pastries? I think this is the same frustrating myopia that makes people assume they all could easily write software the way you do except in reverse.

Let's be honest. Making pastry is not really hard. You can spend 30 minutes learning on youtube, and you will be able to make some basic pastry. It will not be glorious but it might be edible. Otherplace in this thread somebody was quoting some pastry chef claiming that "it takes months" to learn to do cupcakes or whatever. That "months" is a definition of low-skill job. Which is why pastry chefs have minimum-wage sa…

Let's be honest. Writing code is not really hard.

You can spend 30 minutes watching youtube videos and learn how to write basic code. It won't be glorious but it will work.

The arrogance is bleeding out of the text itself, I'm not even sure how that's possible but it's happening.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#110

Post by sosborn »

emodendroket wrote: post #68
hughes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs. With software development it's a little different - it's entirely possible for a more…

Do you really find it hard to believe that a more experienced pastry chef can make better pastries? I think this is the same frustrating myopia that makes people assume they all could easily write software the way you do except in reverse.

The real value of an experienced chef is in the creation and perfection of a recipe. Once that is achieved, a less experienced chef can churn the pastries out indefinitely - assuming they stick to the recipe.
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