Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? • Hacker News Board

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#81

Post by Spooky23 » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 12:18 AM UTC

logicallee wrote: post #44

bootload wrote: post #2

"the salaries of pastry makers in the Chicago area do not appear to have budged much, if at all. The key to this puzzle tells us a lot about why the American economy isn’t necessarily behaving the way workers have traditionally assumed. ... Employers, according to those in the industry, have increasingly turned to less experienced workers to ensure the flow of sweets" The drive to employ cheaper, okay workers in acti…

No it really doesn't. It probably take all of 90 minutes to learn everything there is to know about making the pastries which are on the menu. Pastry-making is glorified robotics (but it's very exacting, baking is rather unforgiving compared to other forms of cooking.) Software development consists of creating a new recipe every day: you are NOT following well-defined steps.

That's a pretty ridiculous statement which pretty much speaks for itself.

Software development is as much robotics as baking. I'd guess that easily 75% of the tasks being performed by programmers in 1999 are fully automated by APIs and frameworks today.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#82

Post by khedoros1 » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 12:20 AM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #72

khedoros1 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm noticing that they effectively used a series of rhetorical questions to try to make a point. The point is that the curve of worker skill to product cost doesn't have to be the same between a pastry chef and a software developer. That concept is more interesting to me than any references would likely be.

Without any support there's no way to evaluate it, interesting or not.

I don't think that truth evaluation should always be the point (at least not initially). More like...a comparison to push into the list for deferred evaluation, as the discussion evolves later in the thread.

If the comment were a stand-alone work, I'd agree, there's no point without framing it as a complete argument with a thesis and supporting statements. However, it's a component of an evolving body of work (the entire comment tree for the story). It can provide an interesting thesis, and it'll either be supported or refuted by other comments.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#83

Post by mannykannot » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 12:22 AM UTC

wyldfire wrote: post #76

emodendroket wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really find it hard to believe that a more experienced pastry chef can make better pastries? I think this is the same frustrating myopia that makes people assume they all could easily write software the way you do except in reverse.

The business of pastry sales saturates pretty quickly relative to other products. So "better pastries" can keep on scaling but you can't keep charging more for them. The regional food/dining marketplace can only bear so much, so "better pastries" can't draw from a much larger group of customers.

If that were the case here, then surely the demand for pastry chefs would also saturate and there would be no paradox?

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#84

Post by jlarocco » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 12:24 AM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #68

hughes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs. With software development it's a little different - it's entirely possible for a more…

Do you really find it hard to believe that a more experienced pastry chef can make better pastries? I think this is the same frustrating myopia that makes people assume they all could easily write software the way you do except in reverse.

I don't find it hard to believe, but if a regular line cook can do the job "good enough", why hire a dedicated pastry chef? If using a bonafide pastry chef makes a real difference, the higher end restaurants will hire them and have a competitive advantage.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#85

Post by WillPostForFood » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 12:24 AM UTC

code_sardaukar wrote: post #46

WillPostForFood wrote: post #37

Tony Galzin, a former pastry chef at the Chicago restaurant MK, cited ice cream making. It can take months to learn how to achieve the correct proportions of fat, sugar, protein, water and stabilizers, all of which are thrown off by the use of different ingredients. This is an example of pastry chefs overvaluing their own skills, so not surprising there is labor substitution happening.

"months" sounds reasonable actually. "decades" and I would definitely agree with you. The problem with this sort of discussion is that everyone thinks they are worth more than the market will pay, and that the market is somehow broken.

Read this article, then spend a few days making ice cream, and you'll have a pretty solid grasp on it. I promise, months is an exaggeration.

http://sweets.seriouseats.com/2013/08/how-many-eggs-should-i...

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#86

Post by vmarsy » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 12:25 AM UTC

blawson wrote: post #53

cheriot wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're giving away another reason. In general, Americans don't value high quality food. A croissant is a croissant to us. Tyler Cowan wrote an interesting book speculating why. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GSYYQ2/

I think by that logic no one values high quality food? A croissant in Paris is probably about 2 euros as well. If we both agree the French tend to do croissants better, and care about it more, so how come theirs don't cost significantly more?

The parent specifically mentioned Americans. It's much easier to find the right and good ingredients for a recipe in France than is it in the U.S.

Go to any supermarket in France and buy flour for instance: you'll find type T45, T55, T65, T80, T110, T150 [1]. And professional pastry recipes will tell you exactly what type of flour in what quantities. In the U.S. you will only find "All Purpose flour". I know French pasty chef in the U.S. who struggles to find the right ingredients. Since people care about getting T45 or T65, the producers create them at scale accordingly, and so it's possible to find a specific flour for the same price of "All purpose flour" in the U.S.

[1] http://www.wessexmill.co.uk/acatalog/Flour-Types-T55-T45-Typ...

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#87

Post by jessaustin » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 12:28 AM UTC

clock_tower wrote: post #48

douche wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that's the whole picture. For instance, in many European cities, I can get a better quality product for $5 at a corner shop than I can for $35 at some artisanal hipster place here in the States. It's one of the things I love about visiting Berlin; I've never eaten simultaneously so well and so cheaply.

To think that people yell at me when I say that the US's higher-than-Europe GDP doesn't mean that the US has a higher quality of life...

Haha yelling is a sign of confusion...

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#88

Post by mc32 » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 12:32 AM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #77

mc32 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is price for pastries is more or less elastic. I'll pay $2 to $4 for a croissant/crescent but I'm not going to pay more than that. An $8 croissant isn't going to be any better because the preparer gets paid more. It may taste marginally better with more expensive ingredients, but not because the chef/baker/baxter is paid more.

The problem is that you're probably representing the prototypical American, who wouldn't know good bread or baked good if it hit them. Customers don't know the difference, so most places are fine with serving frozen cakes from the local wholesaler. So the labor rates is driven by those costs.

Well, the typical American is the one who is being sold the crescent/croissant so I'm not sure the point you're making.

Good croissants are croissants out from the oven. Ingredients and method can influence quality but an expensive baker is not going to make worth more than 2x.

I mean, a $4 croissant can taste twice as good as a $2 croissant, but an $8 croissant is more about prestige. It's not twice as good as the $4 croissant just because you get a certificate of provenance along with the fake story about the family who made the raw ingredients possible.

An $8 croissant would be an indulgence a $2 or $4 is one one can buy every day without thinking about it.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#89

Post by WillPostForFood » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 12:33 AM UTC

dmamills wrote: post #47

WillPostForFood wrote: post #37

Tony Galzin, a former pastry chef at the Chicago restaurant MK, cited ice cream making. It can take months to learn how to achieve the correct proportions of fat, sugar, protein, water and stabilizers, all of which are thrown off by the use of different ingredients. This is an example of pastry chefs overvaluing their own skills, so not surprising there is labor substitution happening.

This is hysterically ironic on a forum like hacker news.

The article directly makes the parallel case of programmers and code academies. I'd say the same thing about programmer wages and claims you need a 4 year degree to put up a wordpress blog or whatever you think the programming equivalent of making ice cream is. Bottom line is if your wages are low, then your skills aren't as valuable as you think, whether you are a coder, or creamer.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#90

Post by mc32 » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 12:35 AM UTC

vmarsy wrote: post #86

blawson wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think by that logic no one values high quality food? A croissant in Paris is probably about 2 euros as well. If we both agree the French tend to do croissants better, and care about it more, so how come theirs don't cost significantly more?

The parent specifically mentioned Americans. It's much easier to find the right and good ingredients for a recipe in France than is it in the U.S. Go to any supermarket in France and buy flour for instance: you'll find type T45, T55, T65, T80, T110, T150 [1]. And professional pastry recipes will tell you exactly what type of flour in what quantities. In the U.S. you will only find "All Purpose flour". I know French p…

Supermarkets may only carry two or three types of flour, all purpose, 110, and "pastry flour" and perhaps some whole grain....

But that's not where most bakers get their flour, most will get it from someone who specializes in delivering baking goods who will have a larger selection.