The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored” • Hacker News Board

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#111

Post by ptaipale » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:14 AM UTC

__d wrote: post #34

pimlottc wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the car being self-driving change anything? They don't open the doors for you.

Given the sensors required to be self-driving, a self-driving car should be able to detect a bicycle in the "dooring zone", and prevent the door from opening and/or alert the car occupant.

Actually, even current normal cars could easily give drivers and passengers that warning.

At least a rental Golf I was driving recently made all sorts of warning sounds about others coming to the proximity, not just driving close to something. For instance, a scooter passing closely (this was Paris) would make the dashboard whine.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#112

Post by jacquesm » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:15 AM UTC

foobarian wrote: post #102

jacquesm wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, that's the theory. But in practice some drivers will see it as an aggressive move to take 'their' lane. They are wrong, no doubt, but it doesn't pay off to go head-to-head with a bunch of bricks when you're an egg. Better to play it safe. Keep in mind that you're entirely unprotected. The best way to stay safe in traffic with vehicles is to assume that (1) you're invisible (2) made of eggshells and (3) everybod…

I commuted by bike for 10 years following these rules and never had an accident involving moving cars. I feel I always had good situational awareness and control of the situation even in complicated intersections. But I've been doored 3 times in that period, the last time being a very close call where a passenger in a car standing at a red light decided to get out, and so I decided to give up the bike. It feels ironi…

The problem with the doors is that unlike all the other traffic scenarios you could be involved in they contain some surprise elements. For one it is stopped traffic (something that is normally safe) that suddenly becomes dangerous, also it can happen very suddenly. One moment a car is an immobile object, the next it throws a 3' obstacle directly into your path, and if you're close enough there simply isn't time to react. It's next to impossible to safely avoid a door if you are less than your stopping distance away from the door when it is thrown.

After all, taking into account that hitting a door is bad it is arguably less bad than trying to avoid it by swerving around it and getting clipped by a car behind you that doesn't respond in time (assuming it even has room and time enough to respond). Ironically, electric vehicles are more dangerous in this sense than combustion powered ones because they are extremely quiet.

Every time someone in my car is about to open any doors I automatically say 'careful for bikes and pedestrians'. Some people are annoyed by this but I still do it and it has already saved the situation more than once.

I'm currently recovering from a one-sided cycling accident so you can take that as proof that cycling is a dangerous activity, no matter what (right leg broken in 6 places, 2 chunks of steel and 13 screws later and I can re-learn how to walk, the accident happened Aug 7th, I'm already back on the bike and driving but it was a tough battle to get to this point this quick).

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#113

Post by mpweiher » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:22 AM UTC

ptaipale wrote: post #105

jacquesm wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty good list. Another major reason imo is that in an accident between a cyclist and a car the car is more or less automatically liable.

Not really. https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/02/21/strict-liabili... : > It is a myth that is really only believed outside the Netherlands: “Because there is strict liability in the Netherlands, drivers are more cautious around cyclists, and that leads to more cycling” > There are a number of (false) assumptions that lead to such an assertion. The first being that drivers are always at fault when they are in a…

Hmm...not always, but assumed to be at fault unless they can prove otherwise. From the article you linked to:

When art. 185 WVW is applicable, it means the motor vehicle user is liable for financial damage, unless that driver can prove the incident was caused by circumstances beyond his/her control.

and

Besides ‘circumstances beyond control’ the driver can also argue the non-motorised road user was at fault. This is only possible for road users from the age of 14. If that road user was indeed at fault, the driver is still liable for 50% of the damage. Dutch law makers considered this to be reasonable, because the non-motorised road user usually suffers more and more severe damage.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#114

Post by ptaipale » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:23 AM UTC

carterehsmith wrote: post #106

Perhaps we could add radars that block the door if there is a risk of dooring, either by a bike, or another car. The car manufacturers have just agreed to put collision mitigation systems in all cars (by 2020 or something), and that requires radars and cameras. Even better, some cars have radars in the back, too, to identify cross traffic & c. So, identifying potential dooring event as well, might be quite doable usi…

I don't quite see why you're downvoted. The proximity sensors that already exist in many new cars (for parking assistance etc) could do this. Yes, they're not "radars" but for some purposes they work the same.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#115

Post by carterehsmith » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:23 AM UTC

Zanni wrote: post #51

The real answer is to get rid of street parking when you have a bike lane. They're incompatible. In fact, just get rid of street parking altogether. As a bicyclist, I've been doored. As a pedestrian, I find it difficult to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to cross the street in some locations. As a driver, I find it difficult to to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to enter the street AND I have…

Yeah I would love to see that. At least on main-ish streets, particularly those with streetcars.

So then, streetcar would be in the righmost lane, not blocking other lanes like it does now. And the streetcar passengers would not have to step on the street, which is obviously dangerous.

And, I would equip streetcars with plows, to deal with people that still park in the right lane, especially in rush hour. + Permit the streetcar drivers to crash the plow into the car blocking the lane, long as the streetcar driver says, "Oops, sorry about that"

That would be most satisfying to watch. The right-lane-blocking assholes would now have a natural predator, and they will either be crushed, or forced to a different habitat.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#116

Post by mercer » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:25 AM UTC

ehnto wrote: post #85

paulddraper wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As a bicyclist...As a pedestrian...As a driver" Uh huh. 100% agree. Street parking is especially dangerous because it is not sufficient to look for the presence of a car; I must look for the presence of a car, and continue looking until I ascertain whether it's one of the dozens of parked vehicles. But...street parking is also very convenient. Streets are very close to where people want to get to; no need to walk fr…

I have never found street parking convenient. It will depend on where you live but I tend to find that it's never available so you wind through the streets and inevitably end up far from where you wanted to be. Thinking specifically of CBD type locations, removing street parking and having more mobility on foot or bicycle works better for me because I can drive straight to a big parking building, then move swiftly to…

A citywide bike program with pick-up points in logical places might solve that.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#117

Post by Houshalter » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:25 AM UTC

nixos wrote: post #99

piotrkaminski wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They'll still be opening doors and riding bikes however. Will they? I'd expect an autonomous car's doors to be under its control unless the passenger declares an emergency (which would be a Big Deal, call the police, etc.). Also, once autonomous cars are plentiful and transportation is dirt cheap, how many people will still be riding bikes in congested areas?

>Also, once autonomous cars are plentiful and transportation is dirt cheap Why do you think it's going to be dirt cheap? I expect it's going to be half of an Uber ride, but not much less.

Because the main cost of an uber is the driver's wage, so I think it could be much less than half. Then if you share the car with multiple riders per trip, that could lower the cost much further (at the expense of slightly longer trips.)

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#118

Post by School-Cotton » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:27 AM UTC

BoringCode wrote: post #56

Zanni wrote: post #51

The real answer is to get rid of street parking when you have a bike lane. They're incompatible. In fact, just get rid of street parking altogether. As a bicyclist, I've been doored. As a pedestrian, I find it difficult to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to cross the street in some locations. As a driver, I find it difficult to to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to enter the street AND I have…

So where should the cars park then? Parking is a real issue in large cities and we won't solve it by removing even more spots. Other solutions (which are potentially more expensive) should be looked into before we consider removing street parking.

People shouldn't be trying to drive and park in major city centers. Exceptions can be made for deliveries.

I live in a major city and I don't have a car. Parking is no issue for me at all :)

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#119

Post by stouset » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:27 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #92

mabcat wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience taking the lane stops people from assuming that they have space to pass except by changing lanes. Car drivers mostly take their cues from the cyclist. If you're cycling in the gutter it signals for car drivers to try to overtake you in the same lane. Why would you be in the gutter, except to yield the rest of your lane to cars? There's not space for a car and a bicycle in the same lane. A car will al…

Sure, that's the theory. But in practice some drivers will see it as an aggressive move to take 'their' lane. They are wrong, no doubt, but it doesn't pay off to go head-to-head with a bunch of bricks when you're an egg. Better to play it safe. Keep in mind that you're entirely unprotected. The best way to stay safe in traffic with vehicles is to assume that (1) you're invisible (2) made of eggshells and (3) everybod…

> Sure, that's the theory. But in practice some drivers will see it as an aggressive move to take 'their' lane.

Having commuted by bicycle for almost a decade, this is the theory.

In practice, if you take the lane, virtually every driver will simply move over one lane to pass. Some consideration needs to be taken, of course — if doing this is causing traffic behind you, you should move over and let cars pass (or bike faster, or find an alternate route).

But doing this causes an immediate and unmistakable difference in the behavior of drivers. If you're driving in the gutter, you will get buzzed multiple times in a day as drivers attempt to squeeze by you in the lane. If you're claiming the lane, you might get buzzed once a month. No joke.

I know which I prefer.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#120

Post by Zombieball » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:27 AM UTC

Tiktaalik wrote: post #77

Zanni wrote: post #51

The real answer is to get rid of street parking when you have a bike lane. They're incompatible. In fact, just get rid of street parking altogether. As a bicyclist, I've been doored. As a pedestrian, I find it difficult to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to cross the street in some locations. As a driver, I find it difficult to to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to enter the street AND I have…

You don't have to get rid of street parking entirely. Another option is to put a separated bike lane between the parked cars and the sidewalk. This way cyclists are protected from traffic and parked cars (ensure a bit of room for the passenger door). Also the increased cognitive load of having to pay attention to many things occurring on the road is not necessarily a bad thing. There is evidence that having to pay at…

A lot of Vancouver's bike lanes are setup in this manner (road --> parking --> bike lane --> sidewalk).

I have seen the occasional bike get doored by passengers not checking before opening their door. But I imagine this occurrence is much less than if the bike lane were on the driver's side.