The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored” • Hacker News Board

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#101

Post by lucaspiller » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:56 AM UTC

BoringCode wrote: post #56

Zanni wrote: post #51

The real answer is to get rid of street parking when you have a bike lane. They're incompatible. In fact, just get rid of street parking altogether. As a bicyclist, I've been doored. As a pedestrian, I find it difficult to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to cross the street in some locations. As a driver, I find it difficult to to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to enter the street AND I have…

So where should the cars park then? Parking is a real issue in large cities and we won't solve it by removing even more spots. Other solutions (which are potentially more expensive) should be looked into before we consider removing street parking.

The other day somebody posted something saying how more lanes in a road will just cause more people to drive, so won't do anything to reduce traffic. I'd imagine it works the same for parking and even in reverse.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#102

Post by foobarian » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:58 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #92

mabcat wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience taking the lane stops people from assuming that they have space to pass except by changing lanes. Car drivers mostly take their cues from the cyclist. If you're cycling in the gutter it signals for car drivers to try to overtake you in the same lane. Why would you be in the gutter, except to yield the rest of your lane to cars? There's not space for a car and a bicycle in the same lane. A car will al…

Sure, that's the theory. But in practice some drivers will see it as an aggressive move to take 'their' lane. They are wrong, no doubt, but it doesn't pay off to go head-to-head with a bunch of bricks when you're an egg. Better to play it safe. Keep in mind that you're entirely unprotected. The best way to stay safe in traffic with vehicles is to assume that (1) you're invisible (2) made of eggshells and (3) everybod…

I commuted by bike for 10 years following these rules and never had an accident involving moving cars. I feel I always had good situational awareness and control of the situation even in complicated intersections. But I've been doored 3 times in that period, the last time being a very close call where a passenger in a car standing at a red light decided to get out, and so I decided to give up the bike. It feels ironic that out of all the cycling scenarios I could be in, I feel I have the least control/awareness with doors opening.

In retrospect I should have applied your 3 rules to car doors as well, and move at a leisurely walking speed when in door range.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#103

Post by flukus » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:59 AM UTC

lucaspiller wrote: post #101

BoringCode wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So where should the cars park then? Parking is a real issue in large cities and we won't solve it by removing even more spots. Other solutions (which are potentially more expensive) should be looked into before we consider removing street parking.

The other day somebody posted something saying how more lanes in a road will just cause more people to drive, so won't do anything to reduce traffic. I'd imagine it works the same for parking and even in reverse.

Were they talking about induced demand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand ?

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#104

Post by piotrkaminski » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:01 AM UTC

nixos wrote: post #99

piotrkaminski wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They'll still be opening doors and riding bikes however. Will they? I'd expect an autonomous car's doors to be under its control unless the passenger declares an emergency (which would be a Big Deal, call the police, etc.). Also, once autonomous cars are plentiful and transportation is dirt cheap, how many people will still be riding bikes in congested areas?

>Also, once autonomous cars are plentiful and transportation is dirt cheap Why do you think it's going to be dirt cheap? I expect it's going to be half of an Uber ride, but not much less.

I expect that cities will heavily subsidize it, to bring it down to about the level of public transport (but far more convenient). I'll admit it's just guessing at a very nebulous future, though.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#105

Post by ptaipale » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:05 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #73

smartbit wrote: post #55

It is true that getting doored is not part of the Dutch vocabulary as it is not something that happens often. But there are more reasons than grabbing the handle with the opposite hand. A non extensive list: 1) Dutch car drivers all have been bicyclist before they get their driver license, everyday to school more than an hour being nothing being frowned on. 2) Major transit bike routes have separate bike lanes, the t…

That's a pretty good list. Another major reason imo is that in an accident between a cyclist and a car the car is more or less automatically liable.

Not really.

https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/02/21/strict-liabili... :

>It is a myth that is really only believed outside the Netherlands: “Because there is strict liability in the Netherlands, drivers are more cautious around cyclists, and that leads to more cycling”

>There are a number of (false) assumptions that lead to such an assertion. The first being that drivers are always at fault when they are in a collision with a cyclist, regardless of how the cyclist behaved.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#106

Post by carterehsmith » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:06 AM UTC

Perhaps we could add radars that block the door if there is a risk of dooring, either by a bike, or another car.

The car manufacturers have just agreed to put collision mitigation systems in all cars (by 2020 or something), and that requires radars and cameras. Even better, some cars have radars in the back, too, to identify cross traffic & c. So, identifying potential dooring event as well, might be quite doable using those same radars.

Edit: I forgot that my car also has this 'Blind Spot Indicator', that is, some radars that look to the side and back, to figure out if the other car is in your blind spot. I guess that could be used to prevent dooring, too.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#107

Post by robbrown451 » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:06 AM UTC

Zanni wrote: post #51

The real answer is to get rid of street parking when you have a bike lane. They're incompatible. In fact, just get rid of street parking altogether. As a bicyclist, I've been doored. As a pedestrian, I find it difficult to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to cross the street in some locations. As a driver, I find it difficult to to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to enter the street AND I have…

I think that's pretty unrealistic, until we get car sharing and autonomous taxis and the like to a point where there just isn't a need for street parking.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#108

Post by deathanatos » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:08 AM UTC

wtbob wrote: post #63

tschellenbach wrote: post #35

Cycling here in Boulder is definitely much more dangerous compared to The Netherlands. A lot of cars turn right without checking for bikes. What's up with that? On the other hand the bike sharing program here in Boulder is the best I've ever seen. (I'm Dutch and live in Boulder, Colorado)

> A lot of cars turn right without checking for bikes. What's up with that? Why are you to the right of the turning lane? If you are a vehicle, act like a (slow-moving, natch) vehicle: get in the right-most through lane, and hold it.

I see this all the time in SF: the car is turning right without being in the correct lane; the driver should be in bike lane (and partially still in the rightmost traffic lane) and should be signalling right, to indicate a turn. Inevitably, the driver isn't.

As a biker, if I see a vehicle properly executing a right turn, I will of course either not pass the vehicle, or pass on the vehicle left in the space left in the traffic lane by the fact that the vehicle has moved in the bike lane, thereby not conflicting with the driver's right turn. But I have to know the driver is about to turn, and so many drivers just give no signal.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#109

Post by dajohnson89 » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:08 AM UTC

smartbit wrote: post #55

It is true that getting doored is not part of the Dutch vocabulary as it is not something that happens often. But there are more reasons than grabbing the handle with the opposite hand. A non extensive list: 1) Dutch car drivers all have been bicyclist before they get their driver license, everyday to school more than an hour being nothing being frowned on. 2) Major transit bike routes have separate bike lanes, the t…

I believe you meant to say, a non-exhaustive list.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#110

Post by vvpan » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:12 AM UTC

Zanni wrote: post #51

The real answer is to get rid of street parking when you have a bike lane. They're incompatible. In fact, just get rid of street parking altogether. As a bicyclist, I've been doored. As a pedestrian, I find it difficult to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to cross the street in some locations. As a driver, I find it difficult to to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to enter the street AND I have…

That is unrealistic and has very bad consequences on the neighborhood. I've heard urban planners (in lectures) say that when there is not a row of parked cars between a street and the sidewalk, people are much less likely to walk and spend time there. So, for example, businesses close along a street when parking is suddenly prohibited. And, as others pointed out, in most cities it is unrealistic due to how little parking there is available.