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We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

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Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#161

Post by Tichy »

format997 wrote: post #156
potatolicious wrote: post #16

This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just about anywhere that's not the industrialized West, and is shocked and appalled that things aren't as awesome as they are in the US of A. It's a also a reminder for those of us who live in such ridiculous comfort and freedom that it can get much, much worse. That being said, I think this article is sensationalist tripe: > "The idea that ‘wi…

I'm actually rather disconcerted by this comment. The arguments presented use relativistic reasoning to justify the conditions in factories in China, i.e., "regardless of the dehumanizing conditions in the factory now, ultimately we are redeeming the lives of these people who would otherwise be trapped in poverty-stricken lives as farmers." This argument fails on a number of grounds, the least of which is that we may…

"Lastly, you provide no justification for why the conditions need to be so bad."

I suppose that is the interesting question. I don't have an answer, and I don't want to defend the bad conditions. Just some thoughts for the sake of discussion:

- Maybe if money was invested in better work conditions, other factories with worse work conditions would be cheaper and get all the business. If that is the case, it might actually work to go for "green labels" on clothes, so that only factories with good working conditions get business (not sure if such labels exist yet or how feasible they would be).

- Still I think it has to be considered why people still work in these bad conditions. I don't think it is simply lack of unions. I am not in a union, yet working conditions for software developers seem fair. I assume that is because software developers are still in high demand. If workers were rare, I don't think companies could get away with treating them badly (unless they could enslave them, which the state should prevent).

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#162

Post by c1sc0 »

r0s wrote: post #84
wdewind wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a certain point the host country has to start taking responsibility for whoring its people out. You can be disgruntled with Apple because Chinese workers got hurt making ipods, but the honest truth is that as long as there are people selling cheap labor there will be people buying.

It goes both ways, you have to regulate the supply and the demand, ignore either and nothing changes.

Just like money flows to the least taxed location, labor flows to the least regulated one.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#163

Post by foldr »

jxcole wrote: post #79
DrJokepu wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Industrial robots are extensively used in the Western world in industrial production. However they are rather expensive and are only worth installing for tasks that don't require any human brain activity, can be done 24/7 (as robots don't require sleep it's more economical to run them 24/7) and not change too often so regular reprogramming is not required. Also, they're not exactly popular amongst manual labourers as…

1) "they are rather expensive" - They are getting cheaper 2) "for tasks that don't require any human brain activity" - Does taking a rubber gel cap from one place and sticking into the bottom of a mouse assembly really require brain activity? That is what the star factory worker in this article was doing. 3) "they're not exactly popular amongst manual labourers" - If the point of robots is to get rid of manual labore…

>Does taking a rubber gel cap from one place and sticking into the bottom of a mouse assembly really require brain activity?

Yes, a ton. Picking something up and putting it in the right location is actually a pretty tough AI problem, in the more difficult cases.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#164

Post by foldr »

JanezStupar wrote: post #68
potatolicious wrote: post #16

This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just about anywhere that's not the industrialized West, and is shocked and appalled that things aren't as awesome as they are in the US of A. It's a also a reminder for those of us who live in such ridiculous comfort and freedom that it can get much, much worse. That being said, I think this article is sensationalist tripe: > "The idea that ‘wi…

My mother (1941 born), went to work 15 years old to sustain her mother and two siblings. She worked 16 hour workdays, 10 hour factory job and the rest working on a farm for shelter and food. She worked hard up to her 60's, never complaining about anything being too hard. She raised three kids and still accomplished a lot. Her generation had it even harder than these kids (many of their peers do!), while enduring hung…

>I mean - leisure really ain't something humanity has been built for.

Actually, it's thought that pre-agricultural humans had quite a bit of leisure time. It was agriculture and civilization that forced people to work longer hours.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#165

Post by ShabbyDoo »

ibsulon wrote: post #25
ShabbyDoo wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recall reading one Brit's assessment of a Nike "sweatshop" in Vietnam. One of the main concerns of the employees was that overtime opportunities be provided. I'm now considering an out-of-town consulting engagement, and I'd much prefer to work 10+ hours four days a week and have a long weekend with my family. Perhaps these workers are taking this to the extreme -- six months on and six months off?

These workers are taking it to the extreme: 12 months on, their kids have a shot at going to college rather than working in a factory.

Doesn't the article state that many workers are quite young? Perhaps younger siblings will receive schooling using some of their earnings?

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#166

Post by sigstoat »

Legion wrote: post #94
edw519 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice comment. I also started reading this, expecting something Upton Sinclairesque, until I read While working, the young people cannot talk, use their cell phones or listen to music. Duh. I know quite a few places here in the U.S. that would double their output with a rule like that.

I hear you on the cell phones and even talking part. But music, man... nothing makes it easier to slog through repetitive tasks like being able to toss on the headphones and block out everything outside my little bubble. Luckily my work life has progressed past that stage, but in crappy college jobs, yeah...

not being allowed your own little bubble is potentially a safety issue in factories. your fellows on the line need to be able to shout warnings like "hey, don't dance into that machine press!"

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#167

Post by potatolicious »

codexon wrote: post #150
potatolicious wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " They didn't believe in providing ear protection to their workers and the loud machinery caused her permanent hearing loss in both ears that she still suffers from to this day." My mother lost a segment of her right middle finger, and my grandfather eventually died of hazardous substances breathed in during his work. My father survived a chlorine tank breach by a hair - a low wall was the only thing between him an…

This sounds like the old "walking uphill bothways" tripe to me: My father/mother/uncle lost a limb/eyeball/lung and were happy about it too, so they shouldn't even complain. Sweatshop trinkets are not a requirement for industrialization or lucrative economies.

"My father/mother/uncle lost a limb/eyeball/lung and were happy about it too, so they shouldn't even complain."

That's not what I said, please to be not putting words in my mouth? kthx.

"Sweatshop trinkets are not a requirement for industrialization or lucrative economies."

Straw man - "sweatshop" labor produces a whole lot more than mere trinkets and souvenirs - they are, in this case, producing valuable electronics in great demand elsewhere.

Like I said in my previous post - safety should be utmost, even in developing countries, but what this article brought up is not safety, it's quality of life standards.

You can work people like dogs, make them hot-bunk, and serve them watery gruel, and maintain effective safety measures at the same time. This isn't to say that you should, but rather that we are talking about two distinct and separate issues. This article pecks halfheartedly at one, but fails to address the other (IMHO more important) one.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#168

Post by potatolicious »

codexon wrote: post #142
potatolicious wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Tales rebounded of bosses that sat around playing mahjong, harassing female workers, or flying all over the world, while exploited workers worked for their enrichment from 6AM-10PM." It sounds like your beef is with the KMT, not the Japanese - it is true that the Japanese occupation enriched (justly or otherwise) a lot of Taiwanese families, but the ones doing the "sitting around" after the occupation ended were p…

> It sounds like your beef is with the KMT, not the Japanese The Japanese were the ones who empowered the KMT, and they were the ones who took away the crops. They were so empowered by the Japanese, it took several decades before political opposition could be built against them. > Then what did it need? Imaginary capital investments in our many fine local delicacies? It didn't need sweatshops. Taiwan would have recov…

How did the Japanese empower the KMT? When the Japanese left Taiwan after WW2 the incumbent Chinese government (KMT) took over. How did they actively help the KMT in any way?

> "that was being concentrated and wasted by the Japanese entrenched upper-class."

You mean KMT-entrenched upper-class... I'm still not sure what socioeconomic imbalances in post-war Taiwan have much at all to do with the Japanese. A large portion of the extremely-wealthy Taiwanese are "mainlanders" - people who retreated to the island with the KMT during the final days of the Civil War.

"How many man-years do you think were wasted in low value trinkets instead of going straight through education and more lucrative industries?"

Um, in my parents' case, without sweatshop industries they would never have gone to school. Keep in mind also, we did invest in extremely lucrative industries, including the at-the-time burgeoning electronics manufacturing industry. The expertise in semiconductors developed via production industries helped drive a large portion of the semiconductor explosion later, and was instrumental in transforming Taiwan from a industrial to a knowledge economy. I disagree fundamentally with the claim that mere millions in US aid would have given us a self-sufficient knowledge economy, without any industrial development.

No offense, but I think you've really got a hate-on for the Japanese, because a huge portion of what you seem to have against the Japanese make much more sense when pinned (IMHO rightly) against the KMT. Government corruption and nepotism was limited during Japanese rule, but reached a fever pitch once the KMT arrived on the island in force. The minted upper classes are mostly old-guard KMT families and politically affiliated as such. It seems like you're taking a large portion of Taiwan's socioeconomic ills, rewinding the clock, and trying to insist that the KMT's gross mismanagement thereof is but a symptom of Japanese evil.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#169

Post by potatolicious »

exit wrote: post #62
potatolicious wrote: post #16

This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just about anywhere that's not the industrialized West, and is shocked and appalled that things aren't as awesome as they are in the US of A. It's a also a reminder for those of us who live in such ridiculous comfort and freedom that it can get much, much worse. That being said, I think this article is sensationalist tripe: > "The idea that ‘wi…

> Privileged white collars shocked and dismayed that blue collar work can really, really suck. News at 11. I know you have the entire article in mind when you say this, but your associated excerpt is a direct quotation from one of the factory workers. > "We (who?) would respect us? We are ordered around and told what to do and what not to do. No one in management has ever asked us about anything. There is no discussi…

> "So unless you question the authenticity of that quotation"

I do not, and I sympathize with the frustration. That being said, this article is alleging some kind of gross, inhuman, deplorable condition in the plant, and attempting to pin this on Microsoft in the process. This quote does nothing to justify this conclusion, and the fact that someone can perceive this kind of dissatisfaction as some sort of harsh indictment on the working conditions shows a complete disconnect between them and the realities of production line work.

Note that I mentioned that blue collar industries in our country are the same - if the author himself had any notion of how factory work goes, he would know that his quote from a frustrated Chinese factory worker proves exactly nothing. If he wants to allege unacceptable conditions by virtue of the fact that managements acts without consultation with line workers, he should rightly level this claim at just about every factory in existence, everywhere.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#170

Post by mattmanser »

potatolicious wrote: post #16

This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just about anywhere that's not the industrialized West, and is shocked and appalled that things aren't as awesome as they are in the US of A. It's a also a reminder for those of us who live in such ridiculous comfort and freedom that it can get much, much worse. That being said, I think this article is sensationalist tripe: > "The idea that ‘wi…

How the fuck did this comment get 145 upvotes?
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