We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work. • Hacker News Board

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#71

Post by DrJokepu » Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 7:21 PM UTC

jdminhbg wrote: post #58

jhancock wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comments are pretty fair and your feelings on what your family went through in '60s Taiwan I take as genuine. However, it was not only hard work that bootstrapped Taiwan out of poverty. Some part of Taiwan's current comfort is due to moving its most extreme labor and environmental problems to other Asian countries, namely China. So now China and a few others are at the bottom of the supply chain...who do they pa…

"So now China and a few others are at the bottom of the supply chain...who do they pass the buck to to lift themselves out of these conditions?" Probably Vietnam, and then robots.

Industrial robots are extensively used in the Western world in industrial production. However they are rather expensive and are only worth installing for tasks that don't require any human brain activity, can be done 24/7 (as robots don't require sleep it's more economical to run them 24/7) and not change too often so regular reprogramming is not required.

Also, they're not exactly popular amongst manual labourers as a robot takes away the job of at least 2-3 people and never goes on strike.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#72

Post by dantheman » Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 7:23 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #31

14 and 15 year olds should not be working in sweatshops. what the hell is wrong with the people defending this? this isn't the pampered western worker vs the average 3rd world worker, this is kids being forced to go without sleep and effectively without a life for pennies. fuck that. i know most people will argue something like "they are probably lucky to get it." it's still bad for them, and trying to justify the ba…

No people like you are bad for these people. People take the best job they can get, because you know what -- it makes their life better. Yeah working hard sucks, but you know what being in poverty sucks more. China is poor, to reach the standard of living found in the west (generated over decades if not centuries) they have to make up a lot of that effort. Technology/Productivity improvements significantly reduce the level of effort required, but eventually work needs to be done.

They can build cities, cars, etc -- but they need natural resource imports, so they must trade with the rest of the world. For some things it makes sense to purchase from the outside market, cheaper to purchase than make themselves, so once again they need to make something that the outside values. It's the most efficient use of their time.

As for possible inhumane treatment in the form of employer abuse, etc that of course is wrong and a different matter than just working hard.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#73

Post by dkimball » Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 7:27 PM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #46

dkimball wrote: post #37

The defensiveness of some of these comments is unsettling. Inhumane conditions are inhumane no matter where they are, and no matter what the situation is in the society; it is never right to do to one's workers what this article is describing, not even if there's a lot of competition for their jobs. This is the kind of thing that explains why the United States is not lassiez-faire capitalist anymore; and it emphasize…

Pray tell, what is it exactly about the conditions described in the article that is "inhumane"? I don't see anywhere that people are being forced to work more than 8 hours, on the contrary it clearly states that overtime is optional. Most of the points that are made in the article are standard practice in factories here in Western Europe, like timed bathroom breaks, can't use phones while working etc. The photos are…

Overtime here is not mandatory, but employers have an obligation to pay a wage suitable to their employees' dignity as fellow human beings -- not necessarily their country's minimum wage; and from the article, it does not sound like 770 RMB/month -- nor even 1500 RMB/month -- are at this level. (Also note the manipulative use of fines and wage witholdings, which no one has commented on as yet on HN.)

These problems, plus 30-40 hours of overtime per week, a frantic pace of work, and no concern for workplace injuries or avoiding sexual harassment (an overused concept in the West, but the idea of keeping managers from exploiting female subordinates is sound), do not add up to acceptable working conditions.

I'm ignoring the article's pro-union orientation (unions are no cure-all, especially since union bosses are easily corrupted); and I'm aware of the cultural habit of taking naps during breaks. I'm also not going to talk about air conditioning, since it was only invented 60-odd years ago; nor will I comment on bucket sponge baths; and I'm sticking to RMB here, since expressing RMB as USD (especially USD at the nominal rate of exchange) is misleading at best.

Is some of this standard practice in the United States? Yes. (I'm not familiar with practices in Western Europe.) Do wrong actions become right because citizens of one's own country are doing them too? No.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#74

Post by wdewind » Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 7:35 PM UTC

Zarkonnen wrote: post #54

potatolicious wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite what you might think, I'm no Ayn Rand-quoting objectivist ;) What I do think is that this article makes much ado about nothing - sweatshop labor permitted my parents' generation to pull themselves out of poverty, get educated, and get white collar jobs - in fact my mother and all of her siblings eventually all got white collar, comfortable desk jobs. What we're looking at is a country in a natural evolutionar…

I think the big question is if sweatshop labour still does do this. AFAIK most of this work is now done via sub-sub-subcontractors and goes on in special economic zones. Workers are usually employed for the short term and the work may randomly migrate to a SEZ in a different country to take advantage of "tax holidays", periods of no tax for when a company first sets up in a SEZ. There are no permanent factories or pe…

At a certain point the host country has to start taking responsibility for whoring its people out. You can be disgruntled with Apple because Chinese workers got hurt making ipods, but the honest truth is that as long as there are people selling cheap labor there will be people buying.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#75

Post by jdminhbg » Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 7:36 PM UTC

DrJokepu wrote: post #71

jdminhbg wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So now China and a few others are at the bottom of the supply chain...who do they pass the buck to to lift themselves out of these conditions?" Probably Vietnam, and then robots.

Industrial robots are extensively used in the Western world in industrial production. However they are rather expensive and are only worth installing for tasks that don't require any human brain activity, can be done 24/7 (as robots don't require sleep it's more economical to run them 24/7) and not change too often so regular reprogramming is not required. Also, they're not exactly popular amongst manual labourers as…

Right - the point being that in the West (and even more so, Japan), eventually the population gets rich enough that it's cheaper to run robots than to just hire bottom-level wage earners.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#76

Post by Groxx » Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 7:36 PM UTC

JanezStupar wrote: post #68

potatolicious wrote: post #16

This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just about anywhere that's not the industrialized West, and is shocked and appalled that things aren't as awesome as they are in the US of A. It's a also a reminder for those of us who live in such ridiculous comfort and freedom that it can get much, much worse. That being said, I think this article is sensationalist tripe: > "The idea that ‘wi…

My mother (1941 born), went to work 15 years old to sustain her mother and two siblings. She worked 16 hour workdays, 10 hour factory job and the rest working on a farm for shelter and food. She worked hard up to her 60's, never complaining about anything being too hard. She raised three kids and still accomplished a lot. Her generation had it even harder than these kids (many of their peers do!), while enduring hung…

Ah, the requisite "noble savage"-style claim. Life is better when suffered through.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#77

Post by abentspoon » Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 7:37 PM UTC

randrews wrote: post #49

abentspoon wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The article was full of this. > All workers must trim their fingernails so as not to impede production. > Workers are strictly prohibited from entering any work area other than their own. > Workers describe factory food as awful. Teenagers complaining about cafeteria food? Really? I'm sure conditions are bad, but the article is trying too hard. As bad as things are, the boy interviewed comes back each night for…

According to the rules: > When the manager arranges overtime, employees are not allowed secretly or openly to avoid overtime if they do not have permission. Not exactly "voluntary" overtime.

> I know that I can choose not to work overtime, but if I don't work overtime, then I am stuck with only 770 RMB [$112.67 per month] in base wages.

I'm not sure which to believe.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#78

Post by astine » Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 7:40 PM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #41

huherto wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very good comment. They are better off with these jobs than without them. Still, they should have some basic working conditions. Such as max 45hrs a week. 2 week vacation a year, etc.

Right, because working more than 45 hours a week is a crime against humanity and here in the civilized West nobody ever works more than that rollseyes I have a cushy office job but the friends from my adolescent years are now mostly blue collar.workers. Those who have their own businesses (one-man shops: plumbing, construction contractors, painters, those type of jobs) work 50 to 60 hours a week, plus client meetings…

When I was in highschool, my summer job was as a lifeguard. My coworkers would fight for overtime because the time-and-a-half was a good perk. This included both teenagers who need no job and adults who worked for a living. This is in the United States. Granted lifeguarding is a rather easy job, but laws against overtime are silly.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#79

Post by jxcole » Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 7:44 PM UTC

DrJokepu wrote: post #71

jdminhbg wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So now China and a few others are at the bottom of the supply chain...who do they pass the buck to to lift themselves out of these conditions?" Probably Vietnam, and then robots.

Industrial robots are extensively used in the Western world in industrial production. However they are rather expensive and are only worth installing for tasks that don't require any human brain activity, can be done 24/7 (as robots don't require sleep it's more economical to run them 24/7) and not change too often so regular reprogramming is not required. Also, they're not exactly popular amongst manual labourers as…

1) "they are rather expensive" - They are getting cheaper 2) "for tasks that don't require any human brain activity" - Does taking a rubber gel cap from one place and sticking into the bottom of a mouse assembly really require brain activity? That is what the star factory worker in this article was doing. 3) "they're not exactly popular amongst manual labourers" - If the point of robots is to get rid of manual laborers, then does it really matter when they are upset? Also, remember, there are no unions in China (so this article claims), so the likelihood of a strike is very minor.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#80

Post by Zarkonnen » Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 7:47 PM UTC

wdewind wrote: post #74

Zarkonnen wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the big question is if sweatshop labour still does do this. AFAIK most of this work is now done via sub-sub-subcontractors and goes on in special economic zones. Workers are usually employed for the short term and the work may randomly migrate to a SEZ in a different country to take advantage of "tax holidays", periods of no tax for when a company first sets up in a SEZ. There are no permanent factories or pe…

At a certain point the host country has to start taking responsibility for whoring its people out. You can be disgruntled with Apple because Chinese workers got hurt making ipods, but the honest truth is that as long as there are people selling cheap labor there will be people buying.

> At a certain point the host country has to start taking responsibility for whoring its people out.

Yes, but this in no way absolves us. You don't have to buy just because someone's offering.

> Apple should under no circumstances be held accountable for China's inability (or unwillingness) to regulate its economy.

In your example, Apple should absolutely be held accountable. If I buy goods I know are stolen, I'm committing a crime. So why shouldn't a company be accountable for buying goods that it knows were made through exploitation?