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We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

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Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#91

Post by Sandman »

ErrantX wrote: post #67
peterwwillis wrote: post #31

14 and 15 year olds should not be working in sweatshops. what the hell is wrong with the people defending this? this isn't the pampered western worker vs the average 3rd world worker, this is kids being forced to go without sleep and effectively without a life for pennies. fuck that. i know most people will argue something like "they are probably lucky to get it." it's still bad for them, and trying to justify the ba…

I can understand your sentiment (Im sure I once shared it too). However please bear in mind this is a huge culture clash problem. Extended visits to the region will throw things in a new light (like it did for myself). Now, clearly, conditions definitely are a problem in many places. However the general theory of working at 14/15 is more of a cultural thing and not an issue. I don't think it's correct to dictate soci…

Additionally; what's the solution? Stop all these kids working? What are they going to do? Really, seriously?

Umm... I don't know, maybe go to school and get an education like the kids in Europe and the US do, so they can get a better job than this?

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#92

Post by adrianwaj »

rubyrescue wrote: post #14

How do people who are appalled by this not contribute to it without exiting the world of technology altogether? I can't imagine the factories for Apple or Dell are any better... Is there a "no-sweatshop" watchdog organization for tech that says what equipment is manufactured in better conditions?

I'd pay more for equipment that was stamped with some Humane Threshold level, like food passes an organic or biodynamic level.

It should be easier as PDAs and mobile devices obtain barcode or QR scanners: scan an item at a shop, then see if it is approved. You don't need manufacturer cooperation, who would only participate if there was a mass boycott of their goods, which won't happen so long as prices are so low. But once consumers start checking on their own, they might opt-in.

Bottom-up change.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#93

Post by ErrantX »

Sandman wrote: post #91
ErrantX wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand your sentiment (Im sure I once shared it too). However please bear in mind this is a huge culture clash problem. Extended visits to the region will throw things in a new light (like it did for myself). Now, clearly, conditions definitely are a problem in many places. However the general theory of working at 14/15 is more of a cultural thing and not an issue. I don't think it's correct to dictate soci…

Additionally; what's the solution? Stop all these kids working? What are they going to do? Really, seriously? Umm... I don't know, maybe go to school and get an education like the kids in Europe and the US do, so they can get a better job than this?

Heh, see there is the cultural differences right there.

An industrial job has little stigma in some parts of the world. Indeed in certain situations it is a big step up from the jobs your parents do. For some those wages are the "better" job (again, not ideal, but you have to consider that as the context).

It's not an ideal situation, certainly, and it should be a moral imperative to offer those less well off chances at the same comforts we enjoy. But I dislike the idea of judging the situation based on the rules of our society, that's all.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#94

Post by Legion »

edw519 wrote: post #21
potatolicious wrote: post #16

This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just about anywhere that's not the industrialized West, and is shocked and appalled that things aren't as awesome as they are in the US of A. It's a also a reminder for those of us who live in such ridiculous comfort and freedom that it can get much, much worse. That being said, I think this article is sensationalist tripe: > "The idea that ‘wi…

Nice comment. I also started reading this, expecting something Upton Sinclairesque, until I read While working, the young people cannot talk, use their cell phones or listen to music. Duh. I know quite a few places here in the U.S. that would double their output with a rule like that.

I hear you on the cell phones and even talking part.

But music, man... nothing makes it easier to slog through repetitive tasks like being able to toss on the headphones and block out everything outside my little bubble.

Luckily my work life has progressed past that stage, but in crappy college jobs, yeah...

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#95

Post by warfangle »

pyre wrote: post #50
potatolicious wrote: post #16

This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just about anywhere that's not the industrialized West, and is shocked and appalled that things aren't as awesome as they are in the US of A. It's a also a reminder for those of us who live in such ridiculous comfort and freedom that it can get much, much worse. That being said, I think this article is sensationalist tripe: > "The idea that ‘wi…

>> "Security guards search workers' bags and pockets >> as they leave the factory." > > Same in the USA, especially in warehousing/supply > chain jobs. You're also forgetting casino workers. The people in casinos that handle money are all required for to have whatever purses/bags they bring to work be transparent (usually plastic). I've seen the same thing for workers at airports too. [ I was sitting at Newark in the…

Gamestop stores have a policy of making their employees turn out their pockets and show their socks to a supervisor every time they leave the store.

What shocked me more about this was the worker who was fined for losing his finger.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#96

Post by krschultz »

potatolicious wrote: post #35
lutorm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Privileged white collars shocked and dismayed that blue collar work can really, really suck. News at 11." Your comment made me think: Privileged white collar shows complete disregard for those that have it worse. News at 11.

Despite what you might think, I'm no Ayn Rand-quoting objectivist ;) What I do think is that this article makes much ado about nothing - sweatshop labor permitted my parents' generation to pull themselves out of poverty, get educated, and get white collar jobs - in fact my mother and all of her siblings eventually all got white collar, comfortable desk jobs. What we're looking at is a country in a natural evolutionar…

Taiwan is not the counterexample to this article to prove that China needs the sweatshops and they are excusable because the ends justify the means.

First you overestimating the extent to which the sweatshops in Taiwan are the cause of its progress and ignoring what other factors were involved. There are plenty of countries in the world teaming with sweatshops, few are growing into Taiwan 2.0

What are those other factors?

1) It is a smaller country.

2) Taiwan's opposition to China was/is very valuable to and respected by western nations. Is it a coincidence that the country that most antagonizes China is supported by the US and gets a lot of business/help from the US? I know companies that refuse to outsource to China but will to Taiwan in a heartbeat.

3) etc

Second, it doesn't _have to be this way_. There are manufacturers in China in less competitive industries that follow more western practices. The really competitive industries have these sorts of problems (and yes, slave wages and total control of a workers life are problems even if they aren't living in a toxic waste dump). The only way to solve that problem is systematic change because fixing any single factory just puts it out of business. Since systematic change from within China the way it happened in Western countries is not happening due to the lack of free speech and political forces, activists put pressure on western companies to stop outsourcing to these places.

And where would they go instead? Probably Taiwan.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#97

Post by dgabriel »

cryptnoob wrote: post #59
r0s wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

many are doing this only as a means to something else - education, rescuing family from poverty, etc Well this is the crux right here, we can't put something like this is context without good data. Do these workers actually make a living wage? What is the cost of living in this part of the world, and most importantly, do any workers actually escape poverty over time? Things like these can be measured, and we should d…

all we have is conjecture based on personal experience I like it! Can I use it? I can refute anything with that. What a tremendously useful sentence. "No baby, you can't know that this will hurt. All you have is conjecture based on personal experience. Now come over here."

Your analogy is incorrect. For every point of view there is a personal anecdote, and while personal anecdotes can be revealing, they hardly count as a substitute for rigorous data.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_example

A better analogy might be, "Baby, I know X told you this would hurt, but that's based on his subjective experience. Now come over here."

Personally, I think this sweatshop sounds pretty tame in comparison to others.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#98

Post by rubyrescue »

lsc wrote: post #30
rubyrescue wrote: post #14

How do people who are appalled by this not contribute to it without exiting the world of technology altogether? I can't imagine the factories for Apple or Dell are any better... Is there a "no-sweatshop" watchdog organization for tech that says what equipment is manufactured in better conditions?

how effective do you think such an organization could be? For example, the first job I worked at the age of 14-15 was below 'minimum wage' in my area and thus could be called an 'illegal sweatshop' but realistically, considering my background and options (I had no immediate financial need to work; this was my 'foot in the door') it was just some kid getting some experience. The thing is, I didn't go to school. (I mea…

I appreciate your anecdotes and I had similar experiences, but I don't think those examples are comparable to the life of a factory worker in China.

I agree there's no simple way to define the standard, but there should be a higher bar than this.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#99

Post by BoppreH »

EliRivers wrote: post #82
potatolicious wrote: post #16

This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just about anywhere that's not the industrialized West, and is shocked and appalled that things aren't as awesome as they are in the US of A. It's a also a reminder for those of us who live in such ridiculous comfort and freedom that it can get much, much worse. That being said, I think this article is sensationalist tripe: > "The idea that ‘wi…

"This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just about anywhere that's not the industrialized West" Seems to have a pretty good idea how things work in a factory in China.

One factory in China. It's quite a difference. I bet the article would be a lot quieter if the author visited more factories there.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#100

Post by zooey »

wdewind wrote: post #85
Zarkonnen wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At a certain point the host country has to start taking responsibility for whoring its people out. Yes, but this in no way absolves us. You don't have to buy just because someone's offering. > Apple should under no circumstances be held accountable for China's inability (or unwillingness) to regulate its economy. In your example, Apple should absolutely be held accountable. If I buy goods I know are stolen, I'm com…

You don't have to buy, but if you want what they are freely offering quite frankly I don't see where Apple (I'm using Apple as example, I mean Apple et al) is wrong. Apple should under no circumstances be held accountable for China's inability (or unwillingness) to regulate its economy. And yes, you absolutely have to regulate both the supply and the demand, it's just WHO has to be doing the regulating. China is no f…

So,for example, if a family need money and they sell their young little girl as a prostitute, just to make money, you know, but in a country where the State is not so hard in fighting that behavior, the "buyer" should under no circumstances be held accountable for that Country's inability (or unwillingness) to regulate its economy?

I think your point of view it's too simplistic and auto-absolving.

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