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Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

nexedi.com

191–200 of 238 posts

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From ordinary users, nobody cares about the web platform on mobile. Native apps are faster Well, that's a problem right there. Instead of helping the web forward, Apple is keeping the web and web-apps second-class citizens. And of course this helps their own app platform and app store to be successful, and as a bonus it keeps developers within the walls of their garden.

> Well, that's a problem right there. Instead of helping the web forward, Apple is keeping the web and web-apps second-class citizens. The are de-facto second class citizens. The are apps that run on a second platform (the browser). If someone wants first-class support, build for the OS. Apple already spends tons of money to make an OS and a dev SDK for it.

> If someone wants first-class support, build for the OS.

Yes, that was my argument: Apple is favoring native apps.

Developing native apps helps Apple further build and exploit its ecosystem, and pushes us further down the rabbit hole.

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#192
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that the point of this article? I don't think it's fair to criticize Apple for lagging HTML5 support in iOS, then say "what's the use of this element?" when it cuts the other way.

The criticism isn't that they are lagging HTML5 support in iOS(although it would be valid- that's no reason to sue), it's that they are specifically avoiding parts of the implementation to protect their platform. Things like full screen support, notifications, etc

[deleted]

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is almost nothing we can do about it. Don't buy their devices. Apple is not a government that can coerce you into submission.

If I put on my naïve glasses for a moment: Apple has a monopoly on iOS devices . There is no competition. And if somebody would built a better or freer iOS device, Apple would use the full force of the state to stop them. So, in a very narrow fashion, Apple does use their government-granted rights to coerce you to buy it's devices, if you want an iOS one. Of course, nowadays Android devices are more than adequate rep…

> Apple has a monopoly on iOS devices.

And if you were complaining as a developer, that wants to distribute your software around, you'd have a point.

But the GP is complaining as a user, that has complete freedom to choose the phone he is buying. He just want the shinning locked-up one, but don't want the consequences of the locking-up. He has all the right in the world to complain about it, but if he won't do anything about it, why would anybody care to listen?

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#194
post #32

A few years ago, France passed a Law to protect small companies such as Nexedi against large companies that try to impose unbalanced contracts. [...] Not allowing the publication in Apple's AppStore of web browsers that are not based on Apple's own Webkit raises in our opinion the same issues as if Carrefour (a company similar to Walmart) was not selling any beans but those based on Carrefour's seeds. This may be leg…

>Is this just speculation, or is there actual case law? France is a civil-law system, so case law is in theory irrelevant. In practice it isn't so irrelevant these days, but it still doesn't carry nearly the same weight that it does in common-law systems (like most of the US, though not Louisiana). On the one hand, this makes it much easier to ignore previous rulings by clearly corrupt judges. On the other hand, it m…

France is their HQ (Lille), so I'm not sure it's fair to accuse them of cherry-picking. (Not that I agree with the suit.)

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#195
post #185

To Nexedi, if you're reading this discussion: As you know Apple these days has devices and platforms to which users entrust a tremendous amount of very personal and often private data. Therefore, Apple is relatively careful about security issues, and slow to introduce features that may open holes that expose users' private data. Your entire blog post does not even once mention the word security. It seems this concept…

Isn't bringing up security a red herring in this case?

Desktop operating systems are arguably less secure than iOS, yet Google and Mozilla have already finished it and Microsoft is close to finishing it.

Yet Apple can't even confirm they'll eventually try it? How is that a security limitation?

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#196
post #185

To Nexedi, if you're reading this discussion: As you know Apple these days has devices and platforms to which users entrust a tremendous amount of very personal and often private data. Therefore, Apple is relatively careful about security issues, and slow to introduce features that may open holes that expose users' private data. Your entire blog post does not even once mention the word security. It seems this concept…

Except French law doesn't care about reality when it comes to these kinds of disputes. This is a country that makes it nearly impossible to fire employees despite a company needing to downsize due to reduced revenues or other legitimate business situations. Also France doesn't have much to lose by siding against Apple -- it isn't as if they have a large employee base here and thus a limited number of people available to start fires and throw rocks if the ruling goes against Apple. (See what would happen if the French government had sided with Uber for example.) Also look at how France denied the sale of Dailymotion to a US company and are waging a constant battle against AirBnB and Uber -- even going so far as to fund a series of taxi apps using taxpayer money.

Am I being unfair in this case? Maybe, however, I do own a (very) small business in France and it is fair to say that France is hostile towards business -- and for a company like Apple, the French courts would rule against them just out of spite. A small, insignificant French startup going against 'American' Apple -- it's no contest. Apple has a good chance of losing this fight. If this startup we're going against Peugeot however, the startup would get crushed because the Peugeot constituency is much more politically 'dangerous.'

I admit I am highly cynical but the reality is that there is no upside to a French court siding with Apple in terms of politics.

However I have to ask: what's the desired remedy of this company? Do they actually think a French court is going to rule that Apple must develop technology to support the claims of this company or are they seeking to get paid? Is there actually an injury here? My phone doesn't make pizza, so could I sue to force Apple to adopt pizza making technology assuming such technology existed on Android?

The argument that Android can do it is interesting, given Android's market share, a monopoly argument would be difficult to make against Apple. This company seems mad because their target market uses iPhone -- that sounds like a business problem rather than something that's Apple's fault. If their product were so vital and compelling, customers would switch if they were so inclined -- much how people switched from the ubiquitous Blackberry -- even 'top' executives.

Additionally, more to the parent comment's point -- are consumers being harmed by not being able to use this company's products? Probably not. If fact, it could be argued that consumers are being protected from potentially unsafe situations. So what is the greater good here?

Also what's stopping them from writing an app to do what they want? HTML 5 is a particular technology, however everything they want to do could be done in Swift.

Should we sue Android for not allowing us to use Swift and iOS APIs when building apps?

I do agree that I wish WebRTC could run on iOS Safari (or any Safari for that matter,) because my startup deals with video conferencing, however this certainly isn't the way to 'force' them.

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#197

Looks like a pr stunt. But, here is another point of view (perhaps it can help, i'd love to see html 5 support improve on iOS). Internet Access is a "human right" and according to the United Nations ( https://www.article19.org/data/files/Internet_Statement_Adop... ) , they condemn countries that intentionally take away or disrupt its citizens’ internet access. Perhaps by not allowing "basic internet access" ( html 5…

HTML 5 as a human right? How about JavaScript?

This argument is just absurd. Apple isn't denying anyone access to the web. Could we argue that a company forcing IE 6 on employees is violating human rights?

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is almost nothing we can do about it. Don't buy their devices. Apple is not a government that can coerce you into submission.

If I put on my naïve glasses for a moment: Apple has a monopoly on iOS devices . There is no competition. And if somebody would built a better or freer iOS device, Apple would use the full force of the state to stop them. So, in a very narrow fashion, Apple does use their government-granted rights to coerce you to buy it's devices, if you want an iOS one. Of course, nowadays Android devices are more than adequate rep…

McDonalds has a monopoly on McDonalds's hamburgers too.

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the Chrome version of the apple store also restricted in its html5 features?

Afaik All 'browsers' in the app store have to be just a skin on top of Safari. Apple has rules against independent rendering code.

Calling it a 'skin on top of Safari' does not really do justice to all the hard work my team has been putting in Firefox for iOS.

Apple gives you (limited) access to WebKit. Basically: a rectangular area on the screen that renders web content. To 'skin' it, you have to build a browser application around that. A complete application that handles tabs, user settings, sync, history, bookmarks, reader mode, anything that does not happen in that 'rectangular view that renders web content'.

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#200
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really doubt you could pass HTML5 compatibility as a "basic internet access".

HTML 5 IS part of the web, so why shouldn't it? By not having several html 5 functions, you actually disallow access/usage to certain websites.

Could you argue that developers using HTML 5 are violating human rights because not every browser fully supports it? Developers are fully aware that not every feature is available on every browser -- yet they willingly use those technologies anyway. It's clear we should drag developers in front of a UN Tribunal to account for their willingness to deny the world basic human rights.

This has gotten beyond absurd. I can't remember when I voted to make HTML 5 a human right. I can think of a lot more important things that might ought to be addressed (and enforced) first.

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