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Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

nexedi.com

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Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#181

Post by st3fan »

cageface wrote: post #165
coldtea wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From ordinary users, nobody cares about the web platform on mobile. Native apps are faster, with better integration to platform APIs and features, lighter on battery, and consistent (even if a large part of an app is just a webview in a native app shell). And for developers, they can actually be monetized and attract paying users, unlike mobile browser-based apps. Safari on mobile is pretty up to date as mobile techn…

Web apps are cheaper and faster to develop. This makes it possible to try more new ideas and serve more niche markets that might not justify the upfront cost of full-blown native development. Why not let developers and users have a choice here? Fancy graphics are not really the issue. It's things like service workers and shadow dom that are really crucial.

"Web apps are cheaper and faster to develop." - Depends who you ask. This is a very grey area and it heavily depends on the type of app.

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#182

Post by jakelazaroff »

Jyaif wrote: post #137
madeofpalk wrote: post #45

It's really hard to believe that Apple is holding back the 'mobile web' when it's shown time and time again that they have the best performing web platform in the market. It was true when iPhone was introduced in 2008, it was true in 2015[0] and it is still true now[1]. "In a nutshell, the fastest known Android device available today -- and there are millions of Android devices much slower than that out there -- perf…

I can single handedly can make the faster browser the world has ever seen, by only displaying a white page. Don't use speed as an argument.

Why not? Speed is a perfectly valid criterion for a browser's usability.

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#183

Post by sigzero »

sarreph wrote: post #111

When I see someone suing a company for not innovating fast enough and opening with sexist terminology[0] I just close the tab and move on. [0] - "Anyone running html5test ( http://html5test.com/ ) on his iPhone"

I just did. 391/555. I ran it against FF 45 and got 429/555. Are we suing Mozilla now for not supporting the standard like we want them to? Obviously not.

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#184

Post by coldtea »

amelius wrote: post #129
coldtea wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From ordinary users, nobody cares about the web platform on mobile. Native apps are faster, with better integration to platform APIs and features, lighter on battery, and consistent (even if a large part of an app is just a webview in a native app shell). And for developers, they can actually be monetized and attract paying users, unlike mobile browser-based apps. Safari on mobile is pretty up to date as mobile techn…

> From ordinary users, nobody cares about the web platform on mobile. Native apps are faster Well, that's a problem right there. Instead of helping the web forward, Apple is keeping the web and web-apps second-class citizens. And of course this helps their own app platform and app store to be successful, and as a bonus it keeps developers within the walls of their garden.

>Well, that's a problem right there. Instead of helping the web forward, Apple is keeping the web and web-apps second-class citizens.

The are de-facto second class citizens. The are apps that run on a second platform (the browser).

If someone wants first-class support, build for the OS.

Apple already spends tons of money to make an OS and a dev SDK for it.

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#185

Post by natch »

To Nexedi, if you're reading this discussion:

As you know Apple these days has devices and platforms to which users entrust a tremendous amount of very personal and often private data. Therefore, Apple is relatively careful about security issues, and slow to introduce features that may open holes that expose users' private data.

Your entire blog post does not even once mention the word security. It seems this concept does not even enter your thinking at all as an explanation for why Apple must be very conservative about adding the types of functionalities you list.

When weighing the tradeoffs between the benefits you mention versus protection of user security and privacy, I'm pretty sure Apple has the right to make the choice it is making, and you'll find your argument is a difficult one to make.

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#186

Post by mayank10j »

sigzero wrote: post #183
sarreph wrote: post #111

When I see someone suing a company for not innovating fast enough and opening with sexist terminology[0] I just close the tab and move on. [0] - "Anyone running html5test ( http://html5test.com/ ) on his iPhone"

I just did. 391/555. I ran it against FF 45 and got 429/555. Are we suing Mozilla now for not supporting the standard like we want them to? Obviously not.

Lawsuit is not just about not supporting web standards. It's also about preventing others from doing so. Even if gf 45 supports 48 more features it cannot do so in iOS

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#187

Post by zajd »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #179
sgtpepper43 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Build natively" means to create it yourself in vanilla JavaScript, like this http://meandmax.github.io/lory/ . What's the use of a native element that only one browser has when you need cross browser support anyway?

Isn't that the point of this article? I don't think it's fair to criticize Apple for lagging HTML5 support in iOS, then say "what's the use of this element?" when it cuts the other way.

The criticism isn't that they are lagging HTML5 support in iOS(although it would be valid- that's no reason to sue), it's that they are specifically avoiding parts of the implementation to protect their platform. Things like full screen support, notifications, etc

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#188

Post by WhitneyLand »

Succeding would require tons of money, political expediency, and novel strategy from legal experts in French civil law, EU law, tech, and business.

So far the arguments seem weak. Apple scores a little lower on one test?

Some sites can't work offline due lack of service workers? This is a useful but niche use case so it would seem hard to rally massive public support for.

Apple would argue users are not being hurt anyway because you could trivially do what you want by wrapping your site in Cordova. Is a primary motivation here to avoid app revenue sharing for your product? If so I understand but that becomes a whole separate legal mountain to climb.

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#189

Post by mthoms »

st3fan wrote: post #181
cageface wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Web apps are cheaper and faster to develop. This makes it possible to try more new ideas and serve more niche markets that might not justify the upfront cost of full-blown native development. Why not let developers and users have a choice here? Fancy graphics are not really the issue. It's things like service workers and shadow dom that are really crucial.

"Web apps are cheaper and faster to develop." - Depends who you ask. This is a very grey area and it heavily depends on the type of app.

I've never heard anyone argue that developing native apps on two platforms (iOS + Android) is cheaper than developing a single web app that works on every device (including desktop).

I'm genuinely curious - is that actually a commonly held opinion?

Re: Why we are suing Apple for better HTML5 support in iOS

#190

Post by zajd »

madeofpalk wrote: post #169
sgtpepper43 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Build natively" means to create it yourself in vanilla JavaScript, like this http://meandmax.github.io/lory/ . What's the use of a native element that only one browser has when you need cross browser support anyway?

"Natively" as in 2 lines of CSS rather than yet another JS dependency. The cool thinks about CSS Snap Points is that they fall back rather gracefully on brothers that don't support them to just standard overflow scrolling.

Well that's not what native means. Beyond that, the issue isn't that Safari is not implementing HTML5 features fast enough, it's that they are choosing to not implement specific ones in order to protect their platform. You just don't see that from other browser vendors (today)
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