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There's no easy way to say this

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Re: There's no easy way to say this

#181
post #101
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. That viewpoint is utterly toxic to anyone who wants to work as a game dev. The Peace Corps is not making a ton of money off your back.

I'm not a game programmer. As an outside observer, the whole game dev industry seems pretty toxic. That may be a wild misconception. My first inkling came from the whole EA widows thing. I don't actually go looking for opinions, so the few opinions i see come from these kinds of explosions. From my old stale point of view, it seems like companies exploit passion until the devs can't hack it anymore. Should i update m…

Yes and no.

To illustrate your excellent point about how companies exploit passion, there are still some extremely small minded self aggrandizing sexist bigoted loud mouthed horrendous toddler Neanderthals throwing tantrums and insults and lighting toxic waste trash fires and melting down in public out there, exemplified by the shamefully long and sordid track record of Alex St. John [1], who even his daughter Amilia deplores [2].

But fortunately most of the rest of the game industry deplores Alex St. John just as much as his own daughter does, so thanks to her and others like EA Widow bravely stepping up and speaking out, things are gradually improving.

Amilia St. John proves her point by quoting her father's own vile words in her article "I am Alex St. John’s Daughter, and He is Wrong About Women in Tech" [3]:

"And finally, here we are at this written hemorrhoid from my father’s blog:"

“Why do young white males tend to be the ones who pick up computers, teach themselves to code, start businesses in their basements with their friends and get rich? It’s an obvious opportunity to everybody isn’t it? If you are a different race, gender, or religion… what’s your excuse? I know of very very few successful bootstrapped tech companies founded by women or blacks.” -Alex St. John

[1] http://www.businessinsider.com/alex-st-johns-sexist-recruitm...

[2] http://www.polygon.com/2016/4/21/11479710/alex-st-johns-daug...

[3] https://medium.com/@milistjohn/i-am-alex-st-john-s-daughter-...

On a brighter and more constructive note, I will also quote Amilia St. John's list of useful resources:

"If you are an individual interested in furthering the fight to improve ratios for women and minorities in the industry, there are so many opportunities to get involved! Start a female and minority hackathon, volunteer to mentor young women and minorities in computer science, or even just start by learning more.

Here is a {short} list of other resources to get you started."

http://girlswhocode.com/ -An excellent nonprofit with a focus on teaching women k-12 how to code. They make it relatively easy to start (or join) a group in your area!

http://www.code2040.org/ -An awesome site with a focus on blacks and latinos in the coding industry

http://www.2020shift.com/ -Focus on minorities in hybrid careers in the tech business. I love this website because it is all about entering the tech world if you ARE NOT in a technical career.

https://www.codecademy.com/ -A great start to dive in to the basics of coding.

https://scratch.mit.edu/ -This is an amazing tool for young children learning how to code. It teaches children to think logically while removing the syntax hurdles.

https://blog.hootsuite.com/four-inspiring-women-in-tech/ -Some killer tech giants who are making a difference.

http://ghc.anitaborg.org/ -Grace Hopper is a female and minority focused conference. I have unfortunately never had the opportunity to go but I constantly hear what an amazing experience it is. Students can earn scholarships to finance their trip.

http://codepen.io/ -This site is a personal favorite tool. It is such a fun playground for front end development. It allows you code while simultaneously working with HTML, CSS and Javascript and it is so flexible. It is all buffed out with preprocessors galore.

- If you want to continue the conversation, hit me up at anytime on twitter, my handle is @milistjohn

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You play Go, I take it? https://www.gokgs.com/

I don't any longer, but yes, at one time I was pretty regular on KGS, hence the habit typo. :D

It has been years for me as well (mostly due to the Java Runtime requirement which I'm usually loathe to install.) The highest achievement of my amateur career must have been tying with a 1-Dan once. :)

I wonder why this game hasn't seen a resurgence (in the West) on today's mobile devices yet.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#183
post #58
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>“$2,400 was my yearly salary working a full time eight hours a day, 40 hours a week job.” Why would you ever choose to work there in the first place?

Yikes, that's only 60 sold licenses to pay for a whole year's worth of salary. They have sold over 1.5m licenses on Steam alone: http://steamspy.com/app/220200 Absolutely shameful.

TO put this in perspective, they made about $60 million, and paid out probably less than $60 thousand total as salary here in the 1.5 ish years the game has been out.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#184
post #101
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. That viewpoint is utterly toxic to anyone who wants to work as a game dev. The Peace Corps is not making a ton of money off your back.

I'm not a game programmer. As an outside observer, the whole game dev industry seems pretty toxic. That may be a wild misconception. My first inkling came from the whole EA widows thing. I don't actually go looking for opinions, so the few opinions i see come from these kinds of explosions. From my old stale point of view, it seems like companies exploit passion until the devs can't hack it anymore. Should i update m…

Game dev companies I've interviewed in Germany were just bad. I can't name names because of the things they make you sign, but I've talked to a bunch of employees and they were

a) one of the "dinosaurs" who honestly believe things will get back to how they were when they first started while explaining how everything will change the moment I join

b) depressed developers who were supposed to explain what I would be doing but ended up explaining how chaotic everything works there.

It is also fairly possible that my resume is just bad and I've been interviewed just by the dysfunctional companies, but there aren't so many here to begin with.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy you're replying to isn't going after anybody. You seem like you're just looking for a fight to make some point.

I disagree. I think he's unjustly going after the employees, or even if that isn't his intent, that's how it's coming off. I felt like I needed to speak up for them, because as an employee myself, I would hate to speak up about bad conditions in the workplace only to be dismissed by someone who knows little about the situation saying "But he knew what he signed up for, why is he complaining?"

By accepting the job, you should know exactly what you signed up for. Just like "you should know" all laws directly relevant to your life.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't any longer, but yes, at one time I was pretty regular on KGS, hence the habit typo. :D

It has been years for me as well (mostly due to the Java Runtime requirement which I'm usually loathe to install.) The highest achievement of my amateur career must have been tying with a 1-Dan once. :) I wonder why this game hasn't seen a resurgence (in the West) on today's mobile devices yet.

There is https://online-go.com/ if you don't want to deal with Java.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some were US based developers who could have gotten more money as dish washers. I don't get this.

Moreover, they know they were directly working on a game that made at least (1.5M * 39.99) ~60 million USD. I admire dedication to one's work and love of the game and all, but that's just not rational.

It's entirely likely they didn't know that - apparently none of the people working on it were told how much it sold and the company tried to stop outsiders estimating its sales figures through services like SteamSpy.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#188
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Squad isn't a games company they are just awesome and backed an employees drive to create the game. I suspect the staff who work at Squad are attracted to all kinds of projects they're contracted for. As ksp peaks and slumps perhaps they don't want to just be in the maintenance game.

"Isn't a games company" that stumbled across KSP and gave it up is kind of like Amazon deciding they weren't an IaaS company and giving up AWS. Talk about your failed opportunities to pivot.

Digital advertising agencies are special in a sense that game dev isn't really other domain for those. If you do your tech inhouse, its likely you'll have people capable of gamedev, be it iOS/Unity/Unreal/Defold/HTML5 or (much less these days) Flash.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy you're replying to isn't going after anybody. You seem like you're just looking for a fight to make some point.

I disagree. I think he's unjustly going after the employees, or even if that isn't his intent, that's how it's coming off. I felt like I needed to speak up for them, because as an employee myself, I would hate to speak up about bad conditions in the workplace only to be dismissed by someone who knows little about the situation saying "But he knew what he signed up for, why is he complaining?"

To repeat what Eric said, I'm not "going after" anybody, particularly not the employees. They didn't like their working conditions, so they quit. Absolutely nothing wrong with what they did. My original post was mainly driven by confusion: many commenters talked about their yearly salary as though it is abnormally low. Hence my confusion about why these programmers would accept a job with an abnormally low salary.

Regarding immoral behavior on the part of the employer: I still don't buy that either. Someone can be a bad employer (ie, one that i would never want to work for), and still be perfectly morally upstanding. If someone, in a competitive labor marketplace, takes on a job which has low pay, I don't think they can accuse their employer of immoral behavior because of low pay. Such accusations should be saved for those scums that pull a bait-and-switch and refuse to honor their promises.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some were US based developers who could have gotten more money as dish washers. I don't get this.

Moreover, they know they were directly working on a game that made at least (1.5M * 39.99) ~60 million USD. I admire dedication to one's work and love of the game and all, but that's just not rational.

It doesn't change your broader point, but I suspect that could be a significant over-estimate. Steam take ~30%, and many copies was have been sold at a discount price (I paid ~$15) due to the frequency of Steam sales.
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