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Never accept a counter-offer

vtorosyan.github.io

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Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yea, you were so valued that they DIDN'T offer it to you until you threatened to leave. That doesn't sound like an employer that values you This sounds insightful, but I don't think it's fair. It's almost always true for everyone that you don't know what you have until it's gone, or almost gone if you're lucky. Your employer is no different. Give them a break, just a tiny one.

That's a lot of benefit of the doubt to give. More likely is that they know exactly what they have, and have done the math. For every salary level, there is a probability P that the employee will leave. If it costs $C to replace them, then they are coming out ahead by paying you $N below market rate when N > P x C. EDIT: To be more exact, it's probably more like: N > [P(N) - P(market)] x C

First, the cost of a valuable employee leaving is very, very high in terms of their salary. The inefficiency in training someone to fill their shoes is awful and risky, and good engineers are seldom fungible in any short-term meaningful sense.

Second, this isn't how decisions get made on real-world software teams. In the real world, you find yourself just working with managers who need to make judgment calls with limited resources and time. Pursuing a raise for an employee is expensive to do proactively. A valued employee leaving sends a manager into crisis management mode, which expedites the process and helps them prioritize it up whatever chain they report to. The manager (+chain) make a judgment call about whether to make you a counter against a backdrop of company policy.

Their failure to proactively get you a raise before you went seeking other opportunities is usually due to a failure of communication, timing, or time budgeting on both your and their part. You can't expect people to read your mind and figure out if you think you're being paid what your time is worth. Sometimes it's obvious (oh look, the last of X's stock grant just vested), but usually it's not.

Your suggested envelope math might help inform general company policy, but it doesn't inform day-to-day managerial decisions in any but the vaguest way. Most management I've worked with has not been formally sophisticated; I imagine this is the case in the industry broadly. Managers do not wake up in the morning and consciously wonder "what do I need to do today... hmm... does the marginal utility of working on a raise for X exceed the marginal utility of writing this operational improvement plan?" They think "Is there a crisis? If crisis, expedite. Otherwise check shit off checklist."

I told my most recent manager I was pissed off about my salary a few months ago (after a year at the company). He got it kicked up the chain, I got up-leveled at the next review session. It took him a lot of time and effort, it netted me a large salary increase. I think we're happy with each other still.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#152
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Losing a team member sucks. But being paid below market rate also sucks. By making a counter-offer and having it accepted, you're now setting a precedent. All of that person's peers will now see that the way to get a raise at this company is to constantly be interviewing and threatening to leave. Is that the environment you're trying to foster?

I think the disconnect is that most people imagine their boss is allied with their company against them. In reality they are a mediator between the two (or maybe I'm in the minority with that line of thinking, but it is the best way I can both do the job and sleep at night). I want everyone on my team to be paid fair market value. I fight for it come budget time. If someone who I think is underpaid comes to me with a…

> Trying to get a raise with another offer is a bluff. You have to live with that fact that you might be called on that bluff.

I think you meant to say "without another offer". When you indeed have an offer, it's not a bluff. Whether you get a counter or not, the outcome for you is you win. Now, if you DON'T have another offer, but try to get a raise by claiming to have another offer--well, that's an advanced tactic and very risky.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have the experience, contacts and social skills (very underestimated by many professionals in our field) you can make much more as a freelancer/contractor. I'm now self employed for 4 years and I earn 6x as much as I earned in my last job. (though I believe I was underpaid in my last job)

How does freelancing income compare to working as a senior engineer at a big corp ($300k total comp if you include bonuses, benefits and subsidized health insurance)?

That's senior engineer at an elite big corp in one of two or three locations in the US. It's a pretty rare (relatively speaking) position to be in.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#154
To clarify: it may come off as expecting mind-reading if hypothetical employee doesn't raise deal-breaker Problem A through channels first. If all channels are exhausted, then sure, move along away from a shop that can't/won't remedy underlying issue/s to a more civilized place that tries harder to make the work community as enjoyable and productive as reasonably possible.

Finally, two points: both avoid perpetual grass-is-always-greener-itis and there is an always-moving trajectory for both the organization and each contributor, best to leave at the right time to maximize effectiveness and rewards.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#155
I'd like to suggest a rule of thumb from the employer's/manager's side that I was given by a mentor once (and I've seen the consequences anecdotally both when I followed it and when I didn't);

Just like the article suggests not to accept a counter offer I'd say don't ever GIVE a counter offer (or try to keep the employee resigning).

Of course always treat your people well and try your best to resolve issues and keep on top of their aspirations and desires but when they've already made up their mind to resign and they actually resign rarely (in my limited experience) can anything good come from you persuading them to stay because:

A) they'll likely leave anyway within 1-1.5 years B) they might never actually have left and they're using very poor/immoral negotiation tactics C) it sends a horrible sign to the other employees saying they (only) get ahead if they threaten to resign

And you have to be pretty fil with whatever your convictions are here I believe. So in my view the article is right - never accept a counter offer (I did once and while it was a bit promotion it was a huge mistake) but also never give one!

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#156
If a boss give counter offer without providing road map on solving your concern. I agree the counter offer should reject.

But there is chance, counter offer can be change of department. Which can be different story.

If just money raise, I think the don't really want to solve your problem. But just don't want to hire a new one. Everyone know hiring is difficult. Hiring is boss problem.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#157
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My recruiter practically broke down in tears when I accepted a counteroffer in 2013. Counteroffers can be great tools to increase your salary, whether you accept or reject them. In my case it was purely about money. I was making $117k and I wanted a raise, but the company only wanted to give options. If it were an early stage Google or Uber, I'd go for it, but not this company. I wanted cash. They played the old "not…

Out of interest, why didn't you counter the counteroffer at $140k? Realistically, you could've probably gotten $150-155k on the spot, right there. They basically just showed their hand telling they want/need you to stay.

Exactly. It's possible to make many tens of thousands more in mere seconds if couched right in those situations.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh it's like selling houses in San Francisco. You only do a few a year so the high commissions need to sustain you. Plus the market goes up and down and you need to save enough from commission to cover market downturns. All that said really good recruiters are well paid.

... most recruiters who are just decent can place 3-5 candidates a month.

This is too generalized. When I recruited for finance/pharmacy easily get 10+/mn, at top tech company averaging 1-2/mn. It really depends on roles, for head hunters doing executive level positions they probably only fill a few a year because the search for one takes a long time.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#159
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My recruiter practically broke down in tears when I accepted a counteroffer in 2013. Counteroffers can be great tools to increase your salary, whether you accept or reject them. In my case it was purely about money. I was making $117k and I wanted a raise, but the company only wanted to give options. If it were an early stage Google or Uber, I'd go for it, but not this company. I wanted cash. They played the old "not…

Out of interest, why didn't you counter the counteroffer at $140k? Realistically, you could've probably gotten $150-155k on the spot, right there. They basically just showed their hand telling they want/need you to stay.

$117k to $140k with perks sounded like a win at the time and I didn't want to push my luck. I really wanted to stay at that point so it was a calculated move to not look too greedy. A year later when I was promoted to director (and raised to $155k + potential $25k bonus) I got to see all salaries (and histories) in the department, and $140k made me the highest paid engineer at that point, so it was a good move. 3 months later after a management shakeup, I negotiated to have the part of that $25k bonus that was in my power ($5k was dependent on hitting sales projections) converted to salary, hence the raise to $175k.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#160
post #51
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My recruiter practically broke down in tears when I accepted a counteroffer in 2013. Counteroffers can be great tools to increase your salary, whether you accept or reject them. In my case it was purely about money. I was making $117k and I wanted a raise, but the company only wanted to give options. If it were an early stage Google or Uber, I'd go for it, but not this company. I wanted cash. They played the old "not…

> my ace in the hole was an unsecured network share drive where I found an offer letter for a coworker showing he made $135k. Eww

I agree on many levels...the coworker was an idiot and a project manager, not an engineer, but had an MBA, which likely appealed to the founders, who were both "business guys". Also, it was silly to have sensitive info on a shared drive where anyone could see it. It was probably less than ethical for me to use that info in negotiations, but it couldn't be unseen.
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