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Never accept a counter-offer

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Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#121

Post by ryandrake »

andrewflnr wrote: post #91
ryandrake wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And when I notified my current employer that I was leaving, they reminded me of how valued I was with the package that they put together. Yea, you were so valued that they DIDN'T offer it to you until you threatened to leave. That doesn't sound like an employer that values you, it sounds like an employer who got away with a great bargain while it lasted.

> Yea, you were so valued that they DIDN'T offer it to you until you threatened to leave. That doesn't sound like an employer that values you This sounds insightful, but I don't think it's fair. It's almost always true for everyone that you don't know what you have until it's gone, or almost gone if you're lucky. Your employer is no different. Give them a break, just a tiny one.

That's a lot of benefit of the doubt to give. More likely is that they know exactly what they have, and have done the math. For every salary level, there is a probability P that the employee will leave. If it costs $C to replace them, then they are coming out ahead by paying you $N below market rate when N > P x C.

EDIT: To be more exact, it's probably more like: N > [P(N) - P(market)] x C

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#122

Post by vonmoltke »

galdosdi wrote: post #116
ryandrake wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true though, isn't it? Another thing to consider: "Will you have to hold a gun to their head every year?" Interviewing is a pain, and I wouldn't want to have be doing it continuously in order to keep myself at market rate. Let's say (conservatively) you need to interview at an average of 20 companies to get an offer, and that it takes an average of 4 days to prep, conduct each interview, and follow-up. That's 80…

(1) 20 companies to get an offer is very high for software engineering / related work in major hubs (eg NYC, bay, etc) (2) If you're applying to similar jobs (in terms of skill) then a single amount of prep can be shared among many I know many who try to "get in the market" every year or so just for "curiosity"

> (1) 20 companies to get an offer is very high for software engineering / related work in major hubs (eg NYC, bay, etc)

Not everybody lives in a major hub, and for those who don't it can be really hard to get a company in one to notice you exist, let alone make you an offer.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#123

Post by DominikR »

donretag wrote: post #110
DominikR wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have the experience, contacts and social skills (very underestimated by many professionals in our field) you can make much more as a freelancer/contractor. I'm now self employed for 4 years and I earn 6x as much as I earned in my last job. (though I believe I was underpaid in my last job)

Out of curiosity, do you work remotely, locally or travel? I have considered consulting, but the local market outside of the Bay Area would be limiting.

I do not want to give away too much personal information but I mostly work remotely. (I meet with my clients once every 2 months or so) The only exceptions are heavily regulated corporations like banks that require everyone to work from within their office for security reasons. (to prevent information leaks)

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#124

Post by tptacek »

fecak wrote: post #119
tptacek wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once accepted a counter that included a pay raise, a substantial equity grant, and had my requirements for role adjustments mostly met --- all offered entirely to prevent me from moving to a new job. I shouldn't have! Things were O.K. for about six months, and only then did it clear that I'd been sidelined --- after the company had put in motion its plans for post-me continuity. Basically: they bought themselves ti…

This anecdote is exactly the type of cautionary tale that recruiters use to scare candidates and dissuade counteroffer acceptance. You're a natural!

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. I'm not a recruiter. Why am I supposed to care what stories recruiters tell candidates?

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#125

Post by fecak »

ryandrake wrote: post #114
fecak wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually part of the recruiter's script when trying to overcome a candidate accepting a counteroffer. I think the line I was taught was "you only got a raise because you held a gun to their head". This isn't a line I would use, just telling you what recruiters are trained to say.

It's true though, isn't it? Another thing to consider: "Will you have to hold a gun to their head every year?" Interviewing is a pain, and I wouldn't want to have be doing it continuously in order to keep myself at market rate. Let's say (conservatively) you need to interview at an average of 20 companies to get an offer, and that it takes an average of 4 days to prep, conduct each interview, and follow-up. That's 80…

Counteroffer as a tool to get a raise is only useful once per employer, in most cases. The second time you try to leverage a counter for a raise, you're much more likely to get shown the door unless you were underpaid.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#126

Post by cscurmudgeon »

fecak wrote: post #74
jonaf wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make $30,000 USD for placing a person??? I'm in the wrong line of work.

20-25% of salary isn't uncommon, and salaries of 120 K in technology is seniorish developer range where I work (Philly and NYC). My business model is different now, but when I did pure contingency work a 30K fee wasn't uncommon.

Do you have to wait a certain period before you get paid?

Does this also work for in-house recruiters?

Quite fascinating area really.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#127

Post by megablast »

gozur88 wrote: post #20
throwaway4job wrote: post #7

Counterpoint, I accepted a counter offer two years ago. Since then, I have been promoted twice. I am now one of the highest-paid, and highest ranked individuals in my organization. Additionally, I have been given many opportunities specifically designed to help me grow my career in the direction that I preferred. This has included everything from project assignment, to introductions to board members and VCs, to educa…

You got really lucky. Normally when a company extends a counter offer what they're doing is buying time to ease you out on their terms.

> Normally when a company extends a counter offer what they're doing is buying time to ease you out on their terms.

Even if that is true, how would you ever know that? How would anyone in the world have access to those facts?

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#129

Post by fecak »

tptacek wrote: post #124
fecak wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This anecdote is exactly the type of cautionary tale that recruiters use to scare candidates and dissuade counteroffer acceptance. You're a natural!

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. I'm not a recruiter. Why am I supposed to care what stories recruiters tell candidates?

I was referencing your time in the recruiting space re:Starfighter (we exchanged a couple comments on recruiting in a thread a couple weeks ago when Patrick announced his new gig - I'd mentioned I met him a few months back). I know you aren't a recruiter, it certainly wasn't meant as any kind of insult.

I didn't mention this being a recruiter-like anecdote for you, but for the audience at large who should be aware of the recruiter script if they are ever in a counteroffer situation involving a recruiter.

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