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Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

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Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#151

Post by bsder »

CM30 wrote: post #91
gautamdivgi wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a travesty of our justice system (or maybe any justice system). The more money you have, the better your lawyers, the better deals can be cut. The rich & upper middle-class will probably just get off with a slap on the wrist (if that). The poor & lower-middle class with not so many means and court appointed lawyers get the harshest sentences and are basically used as statistics for your public prosecutors pro…

I've always wondered why we don't just get rid of private lawyers and legal teams. That way, no one has an advantage or disadvantage. Even the wealthiest get one guy chosen by the court and no other assistance whatsoever and we see lots of rich kids going to prison as a result.

> I've always wondered why we don't just get rid of private lawyers and legal teams.

Because bringing the quality of someone else's defense down does not solve the fundamental problems of the justice system.

The problem is that the justice system is unfair to the poor, PERIOD. And we need to fix that. The problem is not putting more rich kids in jail.

In my opinion, the better change is to remove things like prosecutorial discretion for juries. If the prosecution can't make the case without stacking the deck, he shouldn't be making it.

Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#152

Post by lsc »

nugget wrote: post #96
ryandrake wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew someone who was so aggressively proud of their success, having founded and grown a successful business. He'd talk your ear off about how people like him were the ones adding value to society and how unsuccessful people are just lazy and don't try hard enough or don't take enough risks, or are just deadbeats, and how successful, hard working people are punished with taxes--you know, the standard soapbox speech.…

> Going from $0 to $1M is almost impossible--going from $1M to $2M is almost inevitable. I know plenty of people who inherited money and blew it all. Very, very few people, even children from ''rich'' families, have an ''infinite money cushion''. People who come from poverty or communities rampant with discrimination often times have to work harder for opportunities. But hard work is hard work, and there is fierce co…

Most of the successful immigrants I personally know who have made it in silicon valley came from families with money or power back home.

I mean, there are other stories to, of course, but the student visa and then technical visa course is one mostly reserved for people who come from well off families.

(I am not trying to knock anyone or diminish their achievements, some of these people have worked hard and achieved a lot. I am just saying that if you can get a student visa or a technical work visa, you probably did not come from a poor or powerless family.)

Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#153

Post by zardo »

rayiner wrote: post #65
gautamdivgi wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a travesty of our justice system (or maybe any justice system). The more money you have, the better your lawyers, the better deals can be cut. The rich & upper middle-class will probably just get off with a slap on the wrist (if that). The poor & lower-middle class with not so many means and court appointed lawyers get the harshest sentences and are basically used as statistics for your public prosecutors pro…

I think that's an overly simplistic view. Are prosecutors dropping shoplifting charges for "upper middle class" people because they brought in an $1,000/hour lawyer? Real life prosecutors aren't quite so cartoon villain-y. The bigger issue is that (1) laws are enforced more harshly in poor areas because there is pressure on prosecutors to focus on high-crime areas; (2) poor people are much more likely to be within on…

It's not villainy, prosecutors (largely) simply don't see promoting social equity as their job.

They get paid to bring successful prosecutions. That's the metric of success and lots of successful prosecutions will advance their careers.

If you can afford legal representation you get a lawyer who spends more than five minutes preparing to defend you. The prosecution is less likely to succeed, so the prosecutor is more willing to deal.

Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#154

Post by wehadfun »

dbshapco wrote: post #8
forrestthewoods wrote: post #2

"I couldn't mess up even once". Except he did. And yet it worked out. So clearly the headline is an exaggeration.

I think it is the feeling that you can't mess up that this references and which persists. My past was a single mother, deadbeat dad, welfare and food banks. Now I have a comfortable six-figure income and have been employed for over two decades. I still feel like I'm one bad break away from being on the streets.

I just pray to God and am thankful for everyday I can sleep in my bed and feel relatively sure I can sleep in it tomorrow.

Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#155

Post by bduerst »

googletazer wrote: post #136
bduerst wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>wouldn't you want your kids to have it easier and give them any advantage you possibly can? You're missing the point. It isn't that the wealthy are being incriminating for "wanting their kids to have it easier". They're pointing out that the success for kids born into wealth is typically attributable to family money.

>They're pointing out that the success for kids born into wealth is typically attributable to family money. That's pretty obvious to me, it wasn't obvious to you? I don't think any of the newly rich, such as say - Zuck were hiding these facts. Zuck went to Harvard, an elite school, and got 100k from the bank of mom and dad to work on his own thing. The issue is that this data doesn't filter to the masses. Since it do…

If it's obvious to you, then why did you go off topic about parents' intentions with their kids?

The article is about how having safety nets only for wealthy children leads to a net loss of talent in society. What does "entrepreneurship porn" now have to do with this?

Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#156

Post by cmdrfred »

ktRolster wrote: post #145
ryandrake wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew someone who was so aggressively proud of their success, having founded and grown a successful business. He'd talk your ear off about how people like him were the ones adding value to society and how unsuccessful people are just lazy and don't try hard enough or don't take enough risks, or are just deadbeats, and how successful, hard working people are punished with taxes--you know, the standard soapbox speech.…

>going from $1M to $2M is almost inevitable. If that were true, I could easily borrow it now and make my way there.

Average market return is 7%[0], with a competent money manager and a few years it is virtually inevitable statistically. You can do exactly what you describe, but if you don't have the assets to back it up they won't loan it to you, nor would you be able to make the payments.

[0]http://www.thesimpledollar.com/where-does-7-come-from-when-i...

Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#157

Post by zardo »

dsacco wrote: post #149
tptacek wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I believe they are. Prosecutors try to spend their time on the cases they can win. You don't even have to be criminally charged to see how farcical the system is: just go to traffic court sometime and watch how the system handles people with lawyers.

Speaking as someone who has never gone to traffic court, can you tell me how the system handles people with lawyers versus people without lawyers?

My lawyer turned a moving violation into a no seatbelt ticket. This had zero basis in reality. I didn't get points on my licence, but still had to pay a fine.

People without lawyers didn't know that all that's really important is that you pay fines to the court. You're taking the court's time and you have to pay for it.

They tried to deny they sped, the cop said they did, and the ticket stuck.

Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#158

Post by gxs »

tajen wrote: post #73

I'm in France and I sometimes notice that USA articles focus only on underpriviledged talent . Why only the talents? It's a bit like rape is fought against, except in prisons because they're lower-grade citizen. Or like articles describing unwarranted violence from the SWAT teams: "The family was playing poker, they got busted for illegal gaming, 3 died" will trigger fewer reaction than "The SWAT team killed the dog.…

I agree with you - and if everyone spoke with this candor I wouldn't have a problem helping.

The problem is that instead of saying what you've said, we try to help AS IF everyone is talented.

Everyone is equally intelligent, hard working, etc. Everyone has equal potential is something ingrained to us as Americans.

Then later, when people make boneheaded decisions etc, we want to fix those mistakes AFTER the fact. That's BS as far as I'm concerned.

If we were just honest and said hey, let's devise ways for helping everyone at different levels (not just levels of money), I could get on board. When we're constantly bombarded with misguided diversity initiatives, bailing out of irresponsible borrowers (be it individual or corporate), and adults who don't know how to interact with law enforcement, it becomes way way harder to get buy.

Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#160

Post by dtran »

trjordan wrote: post #3

I wish I could remember where I read this, but I once heard it explained to me as this: It's easy to deride the journey of the rich college student: 80-hour internships at Goldman Sachs, unpaid positions in government, etc. But, the things that are done by successful people are hard, as hard as walking a tightrope. The difference is that rich students walk this tightrope over a bed of pillows. Poor students walk it o…

Author here. Thanks for reading and for sharing this analogy—it very aptly captures the sentiment. Thanks for that.

I just wanted to say that not only was this post extremely difficult to write, but I really hesitated to publish it. When we start talking about privilege or lack-thereof, the conversation generally veers towards comparisons, which is only natural. If you grew up more fortunate than someone else, you say, "Wow, I can't imagine what that must have been like," whereas if you grew up less so: "I grew up with less than this guy or this girl and I'm not complaining" or whatnot. While that's a natural first instinct, I think we can, and must, move beyond that, to have real discussions.

I definitely had more opportunities and grew up in much more fortunate circumstances than many people. As some people have pointed out, just being born in America and having a mostly stable home was very fortunate. Just because I grew up poor, I don't claim to know or understand your circumstances, unique set of challenges, or anything about growing up as an orphan in middle America, a black kid in Compton in a broken home, or a refugee fleeing a war-torn country. But we shouldn't be comparing the sharpness of spikes or depths of the abyss below us— we should be focused on getting as many kids across as we can, and providing safety nets to as many as possible. Talking about these things is hard, but I think it's a good start.

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