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Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

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Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#141

Post by carussell »

slackstation wrote: post #107
trjordan wrote: post #3

I wish I could remember where I read this, but I once heard it explained to me as this: It's easy to deride the journey of the rich college student: 80-hour internships at Goldman Sachs, unpaid positions in government, etc. But, the things that are done by successful people are hard, as hard as walking a tightrope. The difference is that rich students walk this tightrope over a bed of pillows. Poor students walk it o…

Respectfully, this is kinda BS. Your average American kid has already won a genetic lottery. Being born and raised in America is already great. I grew up the kid of immigrant parents from an African country and I am an immigrant myself at 5 years old. I have a great job at a major well known tech company in a technical programming position. I'm not the kid that got straight A's. I was the smart fuckup. I almost flunk…

> Seriously, if you have the intelligence to program, you should be able to find a minimum wage job or what I did, work nights doing security.

Minimum wage work may be enough to sustain someone who has a high school diploma, but well does that work for someone who did go to school, sank tens of thousands in loans, and then had to leave before finishing, assuming they have no support network?

Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#142

Post by cmdrfred »

hueving wrote: post #140
cmdrfred wrote: post #134

>you can start a business with your $1 million inherited wealth, but it has an extremely high probability of failing without hard work. That's why you don't start a business dummy, you work with a money manager and have him invest it and after 30 years of average market returns you get to brag about how 'successful' and 'hardworking' you are. >I'm not even sure what your point is. GP was pointing out that competition…

>That's why you don't start a business dummy, you work with a money manager and have him invest it That's not what we are talking about. We are talking about people that built businesses. >You claim a child in China has the same access to opportunities as the son of a hedge fund manager? No one claimed that anywhere in this thread. Take your strawman fight elsewhere.

So we both agree that the wealthy have massive advantages and thus their successes mean less. If you get a few hour head start at the marathon you don't get to brag about how you won.

Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#143

Post by yummyfajitas »

tptacek wrote: post #75
trjordan wrote: post #3

I wish I could remember where I read this, but I once heard it explained to me as this: It's easy to deride the journey of the rich college student: 80-hour internships at Goldman Sachs, unpaid positions in government, etc. But, the things that are done by successful people are hard, as hard as walking a tightrope. The difference is that rich students walk this tightrope over a bed of pillows. Poor students walk it o…

You are also partially describing stereotype threat (there's more to it than that).

Stereotype threat is yet another victim of the replication crisis - i.e. it probably doesn't exist. It's repeatedly failed to replicate. Funnel plots show significant evidence of publication bias.

http://www.sciencedirect.com.sci-hub.cc/science/article/pii/...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/85192141/2013-ganley.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat#Failures_to_...

https://replicationindex.wordpress.com/tag/stereotype-threat...

Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#144

Post by [deleted] »

hueving wrote: post #130
cmdrfred wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People who come from poverty or communities rampant with discrimination often times have to work harder for opportunities. But hard work is hard work, and there is fierce competition at every level, no matter who you are. I hesitate to take anything away from anyone's success. Tell that to the kid making iPhones in the Foxconn facility. Success isn't where you are, it's how far you've come. By that metric the most s…

Hard work is requisite, not satisfactory. You can dig ditches in your own yard for 14 hours a day and you aren't going to be successful. Similarly, you can start a business with your $1 million inherited wealth, but it has an extremely high probability of failing without hard work. >Tell that to the kid making iPhones in the Foxconn facility. I'm not even sure what your point is. GP was pointing out that competition…

[deleted]

Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#145

Post by ktRolster »

ryandrake wrote: post #26
trjordan wrote: post #3

I wish I could remember where I read this, but I once heard it explained to me as this: It's easy to deride the journey of the rich college student: 80-hour internships at Goldman Sachs, unpaid positions in government, etc. But, the things that are done by successful people are hard, as hard as walking a tightrope. The difference is that rich students walk this tightrope over a bed of pillows. Poor students walk it o…

I knew someone who was so aggressively proud of their success, having founded and grown a successful business. He'd talk your ear off about how people like him were the ones adding value to society and how unsuccessful people are just lazy and don't try hard enough or don't take enough risks, or are just deadbeats, and how successful, hard working people are punished with taxes--you know, the standard soapbox speech.…

  >going from $1M to $2M is almost inevitable.
If that were true, I could easily borrow it now and make my way there.

Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#146

Post by ap22213 »

hueving wrote: post #135
ap22213 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not alone - trust me. Most people don't believe me. But, then, I grew up in a place where many if not most household incomes are less than $15k / year. It's all relative though - I have enough saved up to probably live as a rich man in probably 99% of the earth. Yet, I keep pushing myself to get into the upper class of a minuscule area of the world. It's kind of screwed up.

Sorry, I should have been stricter with my phrasing. There is no place on earth where you can consider yourself middle class only having $24m in net worth. What you are referring to is likely a small community filled with people with net worths above $100m, but that doesn't change the class level because of what I pointed out. If you can quit your job and make 6 figures off of interest, you are not middle class anymo…

I get what you're saying - but the reality is that globalization is to blame. Years ago, if one was born ambitious and able, with enough luck they'd get relatively 'rich' and most likely stop when they hit that point. Nowadays, the same type of person has to accumulate a much larger amount to feel any satisfaction. And, it doesn't help that those with wealth have clustered together.

Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#147

Post by jedmeyers »

trjordan wrote: post #3

I wish I could remember where I read this, but I once heard it explained to me as this: It's easy to deride the journey of the rich college student: 80-hour internships at Goldman Sachs, unpaid positions in government, etc. But, the things that are done by successful people are hard, as hard as walking a tightrope. The difference is that rich students walk this tightrope over a bed of pillows. Poor students walk it o…

At what point does one have to start to be considered independently successful?

- You inherited a lot of wealth and a CTO position at a father's company

- Parents gave you money and bought you stuff

- Parents gave you a place to live

- At least you had one parent

- Being an orphan, at least you were born in a first-world country

- At least you were born at all, thanks to the medical care in a third world country

So, unless you are an orphan from remote parts of Africa who built a Fortune 10 company from scratch your success is not your own? We all owe it to the girl who invented the wheel. But then maybe she had a rich parent who gave her stone carving tools to play as a child, so that's not really an achievement, is it?

Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#148

Post by bsder »

rayiner wrote: post #65
gautamdivgi wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a travesty of our justice system (or maybe any justice system). The more money you have, the better your lawyers, the better deals can be cut. The rich & upper middle-class will probably just get off with a slap on the wrist (if that). The poor & lower-middle class with not so many means and court appointed lawyers get the harshest sentences and are basically used as statistics for your public prosecutors pro…

I think that's an overly simplistic view. Are prosecutors dropping shoplifting charges for "upper middle class" people because they brought in an $1,000/hour lawyer? Real life prosecutors aren't quite so cartoon villain-y. The bigger issue is that (1) laws are enforced more harshly in poor areas because there is pressure on prosecutors to focus on high-crime areas; (2) poor people are much more likely to be within on…

> Are prosecutors dropping shoplifting charges for "upper middle class" people because they brought in an $1,000/hour lawyer?

Yes, they are. It's not this blatant, but the result is the same.

First, the rich person has probably been told, repeatedly, "Shut the fuck up, and only talk to your lawyer." This is a HUGE deal and helps your end result dramatically.

Second, the rich person likely doesn't have to worry about losing their job or coordinating child care while being missing for 24 hours due to incarceration.

Third, the rich person doesn't have to worry about making bail.

Fourth, you mentioned "social separation". Agreed. The richer person likely has a closer contact to a friend inside the justice system. That helps.

Fifth, a rich person is more likely to "look" not guilty. So both the prosecution and defense negotiate with that in their heads.

Sixth, the rich person likely knows English well and understands the cultural norms. This is a significant advantage. For example, in the southwest US, more than a few Hispanics wind up pleading guilty to having underage sex thinking it's not a big deal without realizing that they're about to have a felony on their record.

Seventh, the rich person understands navigating a bureaucracy. Do NOT underestimate this skill. A lot of lower class people don't realize the power that lower level functionaries have and wind up pissing them off to their detriment. The number of times I have seen people mouthing off to someone in the probation office makes me cry.

Finally, your lawyer likely knows the inside game. He knows that this judge likes to slam young punks, so he'll try to avoid him for stupid pot offenses. He knows that this judge is getting back from vacation on this day and is likely in a good mood so he can get a better deal. He knows that this judges hates DUI's, etc.

The list goes on and on ...

So, the prosecutor doesn't actually think: "He's rich, so I won't prosecute this so hard." But at every point where a decision can go for or against, there's a bit of bias in the rich person's favor distributed throughout the system.

Eventually that multiplies up to a big advantage.

Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#149

Post by dsacco »

tptacek wrote: post #76
rayiner wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's an overly simplistic view. Are prosecutors dropping shoplifting charges for "upper middle class" people because they brought in an $1,000/hour lawyer? Real life prosecutors aren't quite so cartoon villain-y. The bigger issue is that (1) laws are enforced more harshly in poor areas because there is pressure on prosecutors to focus on high-crime areas; (2) poor people are much more likely to be within on…

Yes, I believe they are. Prosecutors try to spend their time on the cases they can win. You don't even have to be criminally charged to see how farcical the system is: just go to traffic court sometime and watch how the system handles people with lawyers.

Speaking as someone who has never gone to traffic court, can you tell me how the system handles people with lawyers versus people without lawyers?

Re: Lost Diamonds: How our current system is failing underprivileged talent

#150

Post by wehadfun »

jedmeyers wrote: post #147
trjordan wrote: post #3

I wish I could remember where I read this, but I once heard it explained to me as this: It's easy to deride the journey of the rich college student: 80-hour internships at Goldman Sachs, unpaid positions in government, etc. But, the things that are done by successful people are hard, as hard as walking a tightrope. The difference is that rich students walk this tightrope over a bed of pillows. Poor students walk it o…

At what point does one have to start to be considered independently successful? - You inherited a lot of wealth and a CTO position at a father's company - Parents gave you money and bought you stuff - Parents gave you a place to live - At least you had one parent - Being an orphan, at least you were born in a first-world country - At least you were born at all, thanks to the medical care in a third world country So,…

I would say Parents gave you money is when most would consider your success tied to your parents.
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