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Not Just Any Old Geek

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151–160 of 305 posts

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#151
post #30
post #15

I am getting to old geek status myself. From a more cynical perspective, I am not sure if we can compete with early twenty-somethings who are unjaded and buy into the silicon valley mystique. They are willing to work 12 hour days and still do the faux-japanese salarymen afterwork socializing that supposedly builds "culture". Older geeks don't buy into this ping-pong table propaganda. Tech companies probably won't be…

I wouldn't worry. We can actually Get Stuff Done, which at the end of the day is what really counts. Inexperienced young programmers working 2x the hours do not necessarily produce Output That Works (I know, I've been one myself). Sure, not every company will realize that, but then again, you don't necessarily want to work for every ping-pong table company, either. Cultural fit and all that.

I agree more experienced people usually get stuff done and it's generally been my experience. Of course there are always exceptions. The problem I see is that often it is not the output itself that wins, rather the perception around the output.

I've seen many talentless people rise through the ranks of companies or start their own just because they were good at bs'ing, marketing themselves, had a certain personality type, and many other things that had little to do with programming directly. Of course some of these things are important and valuable, but many of them are toxic, especially in a software development context.

Indeed, we've all observed countless startups that become industry darlings that don't even ever produce real revenue let alone profits. We can argue about what their output actually is, but often it's smoke and mirrors at best, fraud at worst. This all happens often at the expense of progress or another company that actually does produce value, but fails at playing the game properly (same applies to people). But these startups "succeed" at least temporarily because they create perceptions that one day, just with many more millions and many more articles, they will be great and rule the world. Whether it catches up with them or not is something else. Perception is the way so many things in life work, and particularly important to many companies, the stock market.

I think there are just so many examples where the belief that if you work hard and do good work does not hold. I personally value these things, but many people do not. It's a complicated topic I could ramble on about forever, but I think we've all been in these situations and had things happen to use like receiving praise for arguably our worst work.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#152
post #149

If you want long career in programming you should really do serious career planing during your 20s to make sure you check all important boxes: correct technologies, mix of different kind of companies, team sizes and roles. Otherwise you might get into complicated position down the road. I am in the early 30s and on top of my ability, but I don't see my future too bright from here. 10 years ago I make decision to do f…

I'm 41, 42 next month, and working as a software engineer. At age 39 I was a technical recruiter who decided to become a developer. I've never felt my age has been a significant factor in getting work.

What has been a lot tougher is learning how to get a job I really want. It turns out there's no substitute for being good at something that makes other people money. If you don't focus on making yourself marketable, your going to have a hard time finding not-crappy development work at age 22 or 82.

From late 2013 to late 2016, I burned through several dev jobs that drove me bonkers, or I drove them bonkers. Then I got better at figuring out what kind of job I want, what work I'd have to do to get that job, and which jobs to avoid.

In February I found a job opportunity I actually like, actually got the job, and now I'm super happy. My teammates are in their 20s, 30s, and 50s. Age differences are never an issue. If anything, they are an asset.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#153
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't worry. We can actually Get Stuff Done, which at the end of the day is what really counts. Inexperienced young programmers working 2x the hours do not necessarily produce Output That Works (I know, I've been one myself). Sure, not every company will realize that, but then again, you don't necessarily want to work for every ping-pong table company, either. Cultural fit and all that.

>I wouldn't worry. We can actually Get Stuff Done, which at the end of the day is what really counts. This is a myth. It doesn't count for that much. Programmer productivity cannot be effectively measured even by other programmers and certainly can't be measured by non-technical managers. The fact that you are doing something can be easily verified. The fact that you are doing it effectively at an appropriate speed a…

> The fact that you are doing it effectively at an appropriate speed and quality cannot.

Well it can, but not in a way we necessarily like - it's called the marketplace.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I actually think that the ageism in tech is a result of it being a young industry. As more and more dev's go grey the problem will resolve itself. Tell that to devs who worked in the dotcom boom, or the PC boom before that.

Perhaps then the issue is that all developers see a path to management as the only way to progress their career and in actual fact there is only a minority of developers who love their job enough to want to do it for their entire career?

Many, but certainly not all. The best developer I know started his career writing software for the original Macintosh in the 80's. He's still primarily a developer.

Here's the important question: how many twenty- or thirty-something startup founders hear that and think "dinosaur who writes GOTO statements" (false), versus "awesome hacker who has been constantly seeking out the newest technologies for 30+ years" (true)?

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#155
The fact that 40yo is considered "old" in this industry is why we have such shallow culture and so much cargo cult and rediscovery of stale (or even discarded) techniques as the latest BS fad.

Consider a law firm or hospital with no professionals over 40...

It fits with SV, because it just needs code monkeys to build what's basically simple apps in whatever language du jour. Things that are touted as big solutions in web-land for example, have been done, tried and are commonplace in all other parts of IT.

Places and firms that build important stuff, where Computer Science matters (embedded code, OSes, databases, critical systems, etc) do hire "older" people, and some even mostly older people.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#156
I'm pushing 40 and am starting to measure my productivity by how much code I remove in a day, not how much I write. Is anyone else feeling that way? That much of what we do is a waste of time, that perhaps software is evolving in wrong directions due to issues like income inequality (wealth and expertise being at opposite ends of the spectrum) or worse is better? Sometimes I stare at the ceiling realizing that the entirety of what I'm working on can be represented by a symlinking filesystem or Excel spreadsheet. I'm not.. tired, more like, I'm tired of witnessing everything I've ever worked on being obsoleted in 3 years because yet another framework reinvents the wheel or proprietary solution opens a new market due to vendor lock-in. How did the web of declarative interoperating data become walled gardens and SAAS? There is money to be made yes, but is this progress?

At some point, the problems fall away and it all starts to look more like the wheelings and dealings of Mad Men than computer science. Then the choice seems to be whether to make the most of things (find meaning in the unfulfilling) or take an early retirement.

I'm not worried about finding work after I'm over the hill.. I'm worried about the very real possibility of my legacy being a portfolio instead of a real contribution to the betterment of humankind - building an R2D2 or software that actually frees people from labor. Anything short of that real progress feels like a waste of time, and I understand why it might not be prudent to hire someone who doesn't have profit as a primary motive. What really keeps me up at night is the thought that the idealism I’m feeling is nearly identical to what I felt as a youth, and I don't know if something has gone terribly wrong with the state of things or if the world just passed me by.

P.S. I love my job. Really! I’m just running out of time for the future to arrive when I could be working on it now.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#157
post #7

> I’ve published a dozen articles ... build software with thousands of paying customers. ... work on open source Python. ... read almost 40 business books, and I live and breathe HackerNews. Why not start your own business or become CTO? Why work for someone less experienced?

Starting your own business always entails some risk. Some people are not comfortable taking that risk, surely if you have a family to support it might not be feasible. This depends a bit on the country where you live, but where I live you are liable for your company - which means that what you own privately is shared. I don't know how it's like where he lives, but the risk might not be worth it. It also takes a huge…

> Of course, the CTO option seems good in that case :-)

CTO typically means lots of travelling, which isn't really good if you're prioritizing your family (well, unless you can bring your family with you, and you probably can't).

At half the companies, the CTO is the head of all engineering, and at the other half, the CTO is responsible for evangelizing the technology. In both cases, but especially the latter, you are going to be the public face of the technical side of the company. Expect lots of travelling to conferences and other speaking engagements, and expect the sales team to call you in on sales trips to help sell the product to high-rolling customers. If your company has multiple offices around the world, you're also going to be expected to tour the offices as well.

All this time travelling is time you won't be spending with your family.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#158
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your time is valuable no matter how old you are I disagree, but maybe that would explain it, your time is actually more valuable (for you) as you grow older.

The time between 20-35 is the most valuable time in your life imho. You will regret wasting this time for some death marches for a startup which promise you a lot of bullshit.

Of course you will regret it! Because, as I said, your time becomes more valuable as you get older. You're confusing good advice and empirical observation of reality.

Anyway, let me add to my previous comment. It cuts both ways. If someone hires somebody who doesn't think their time is valuable, they are fooling themselves too. Perhaps this person will spend 2 hours on ping-pong and 2 hours on Facebook out of their 12 hour shifts, because they do not value their time as much yet.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#159
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your time is valuable no matter how old you are I disagree, but maybe that would explain it, your time is actually more valuable (for you) as you grow older.

Really? You think your time is without value? What a strange position.

[deleted]

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#160
post #85
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, even as I'm getting older, this isn't at all obvious to me. Someone with five years solid experience with web development might very well be far more effective than someone with twenty years experience of working in corners of large companies with various technologies, especially when you consider the expected salary. I think it good that people are talking about these things, but sometime it seem like peop…

If you were having cardiac surgery, would you prefer your surgeon to be a year out of med school having done the operation oh 3 or 4 times, or the proverbial graybeard who has done it a thousand times? If you were wrongly convicted and awaiting a death sentence, would you pick a 22 year old attorney fresh from law school to defend you? If you have a field full of tomatoes that needs picking, do you save a few dollars…

>If you were having cardiac surgery, would you prefer your surgeon to be a year out of med school having done the operation oh 3 or 4 times, or the proverbial graybeard who has done it a thousand times?

If you were hiring, you would want the starry eyed, finger in the pulse of latest fads, young programmer you can pay less, overwork, boss around, and screw over, or the senior engineer, who values sane hours and time with family, doesn't blindly adopt any BS fad technology you want them to use, and demands salary that matches their experience?

Especially if the first can still get out something that "kinda works" and you could not give a rats arse about technical debt and bad decisions behind the UI facade?

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