I find it troubling to hear that a 37 year old calling themselves old. There is no place for ageism in this world. Everyone has their own merit and it's got nothing to do with their age.
Not Just Any Old Geek
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Re: Not Just Any Old Geek
#82[deleted]
Re: Not Just Any Old Geek
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wouldn't worry. We can actually Get Stuff Done, which at the end of the day is what really counts. Inexperienced young programmers working 2x the hours do not necessarily produce Output That Works (I know, I've been one myself). Sure, not every company will realize that, but then again, you don't necessarily want to work for every ping-pong table company, either. Cultural fit and all that.
Honestly, even as I'm getting older, this isn't at all obvious to me. Someone with five years solid experience with web development might very well be far more effective than someone with twenty years experience of working in corners of large companies with various technologies, especially when you consider the expected salary. I think it good that people are talking about these things, but sometime it seem like peop…
I came to this realization a few years ago. I found that while my judgment was still improving, my output wasn't and my ability to think through problems wasn't where it used to be, especially when it came to the tiny details.
So I moved into management. It allowed me leverage my strengths while putting me in a situation where my value wasn't determined by my raw output. It sucks going to all those meetings, but it honestly made me enjoy the programming I did do considerably more than I did before. The programming I did do for the team was all prototype work with new technologies that either I or the team felt could help us out...short 2-3 hour projects whenever I could fit them into my schedule. But everything was new and I wasn't implementing things I'd done a ton of times before.
In the end, I don't think this is a satisfying answer. There just aren't enough managerial jobs for all the old programmers and a lot of them can't handle the meeting workload of that kind of position. But I still suggest it on an individual basis because it's a chance to put all that experience to work programming at a higher level. Instead of linked lists you're dealing with fresh-out-of-college devs who know their big-Os by heart and can crank out code at a frightening pace. But you still need someone to ensure the overall design doesn't suck. To read over what they're producing since there will always be some crazy mis-step that they make from time to time. You still need someone who has seen a project evolve over multiple years to know which decisions will become problematic down the road. The young guys can't do that. And while it's been an adjustment to learn to find satisfaction without typing out the code myself, I've learned to enjoy the launches (both product and career) in a way that's more fulfilling than my time as a full-time coder was.
Re: Not Just Any Old Geek
#84I am getting to old geek status myself. From a more cynical perspective, I am not sure if we can compete with early twenty-somethings who are unjaded and buy into the silicon valley mystique. They are willing to work 12 hour days and still do the faux-japanese salarymen afterwork socializing that supposedly builds "culture". Older geeks don't buy into this ping-pong table propaganda. Tech companies probably won't be…
I wouldn't worry. We can actually Get Stuff Done, which at the end of the day is what really counts. Inexperienced young programmers working 2x the hours do not necessarily produce Output That Works (I know, I've been one myself). Sure, not every company will realize that, but then again, you don't necessarily want to work for every ping-pong table company, either. Cultural fit and all that.
> We can actually Get Stuff Done, which at the end of the day is what really counts
It's harder for me to "get stuff done" when then "stuff" is bullshit. There are times when what's being asked for is wrong (stealing code/images/whatever), or a wrong solution to the problem. "Right/Wrong" can be subjective, so I shy away from making those snap judgements until I know more about why something is being asked for, but after a while, you tend to develop a 6th sense for crazy.
A 23 year old in their first job will (generally) just plug away at whatever's given them. Older folks generally won't deal as well with bullshit work.
Re: Not Just Any Old Geek
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wouldn't worry. We can actually Get Stuff Done, which at the end of the day is what really counts. Inexperienced young programmers working 2x the hours do not necessarily produce Output That Works (I know, I've been one myself). Sure, not every company will realize that, but then again, you don't necessarily want to work for every ping-pong table company, either. Cultural fit and all that.
Honestly, even as I'm getting older, this isn't at all obvious to me. Someone with five years solid experience with web development might very well be far more effective than someone with twenty years experience of working in corners of large companies with various technologies, especially when you consider the expected salary. I think it good that people are talking about these things, but sometime it seem like peop…
If you were having cardiac surgery, would you prefer your surgeon to be a year out of med school having done the operation oh 3 or 4 times, or the proverbial graybeard who has done it a thousand times?
If you were wrongly convicted and awaiting a death sentence, would you pick a 22 year old attorney fresh from law school to defend you?
If you have a field full of tomatoes that needs picking, do you save a few dollars an hour hiring the young guy at minimum wage who is healthy, has no family, and will easily work beyond maximum hours without reporting it, or do you hire the older tomato picker who needs a higher salary because of his kids and can't work more than 7.5 hours a day because of his bad back?
So are we law and medicine or are we tomato pickers? I had always thought of engineering as the former but sadly the more articles I see on how "culture fit" discrimination works, maybe we've commoditized the industry into a low wage manual labor job.
Re: Not Just Any Old Geek
#86This is an AWESOME idea and I totally appreciate both Tim's original article on the subject and your efforts on this job site. As a CTO I have long appreciated real world knowledge and experience over inexperienced, cheap, eagerness. Our employee's are all 30+, most have families and I believe that leads to well balanced and focused employee's. That is not to say I would not hire a younger employee but with age comes…
> I actually think that the ageism in tech is a result of it being a young industry. As more and more dev's go grey the problem will resolve itself. Tell that to devs who worked in the dotcom boom, or the PC boom before that.
Perhaps then the issue is that all developers see a path to management as the only way to progress their career and in actual fact there is only a minority of developers who love their job enough to want to do it for their entire career?
Re: Not Just Any Old Geek
#87As a programmer in my 60s, my (rather obvious) advice is to save and invest throughout your career so you have financial flexibility as you get older. I still very much enjoy working but when I have unbooked time I really enjoy that also.
It also helps to have great hobbies. I enjoy writing (I am finishing up a Haskell book, and I have a partially written book on cognitive science that will get finished some day), I take many online classes, read a lot, hang out with friends and family, hiking, kayaking, etc.
As we get older we do slow down. I don't charge very much money anymore as a consultant and I am careful to only take work appropriate to my skills. Now when I write, I do so at a slower pace.
There is a natural order in life and I accept that.
Re: Not Just Any Old Geek
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
Honestly, even as I'm getting older, this isn't at all obvious to me. Someone with five years solid experience with web development might very well be far more effective than someone with twenty years experience of working in corners of large companies with various technologies, especially when you consider the expected salary. I think it good that people are talking about these things, but sometime it seem like peop…
If you were having cardiac surgery, would you prefer your surgeon to be a year out of med school having done the operation oh 3 or 4 times, or the proverbial graybeard who has done it a thousand times? If you were wrongly convicted and awaiting a death sentence, would you pick a 22 year old attorney fresh from law school to defend you? If you have a field full of tomatoes that needs picking, do you save a few dollars…
> If you were having cardiac surgery, would you prefer your surgeon to be a year out of med school having done the operation oh 3 or 4 times, or the proverbial graybeard who has done it a thousand times?
Rationally one would care about the outcomes, and the number of times would merely make us more certain about the outcome.
Relative to the two scenarios you showed, programming is usually more like tomato picking—nobody is going to die or be injured because of a bug or failure to deliver something.
Re: Not Just Any Old Geek
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wouldn't worry. We can actually Get Stuff Done, which at the end of the day is what really counts. Inexperienced young programmers working 2x the hours do not necessarily produce Output That Works (I know, I've been one myself). Sure, not every company will realize that, but then again, you don't necessarily want to work for every ping-pong table company, either. Cultural fit and all that.
Honestly, even as I'm getting older, this isn't at all obvious to me. Someone with five years solid experience with web development might very well be far more effective than someone with twenty years experience of working in corners of large companies with various technologies, especially when you consider the expected salary. I think it good that people are talking about these things, but sometime it seem like peop…
I think "older" programmers are more likely to stick around longer. If your looking for someone to fill space so you can brag about the hours your team is putting in and party with while you blow threw a few more of some investors millions go with the young guy. Since, the companies' going to blow up in six month anyway why worry about how long they stay in a job.
Re: Not Just Any Old Geek
#90I didn't feel this kind of bias here in Berlin. When founding FitAnalytics.com, we were three young students fresh from university, but all of us highly appreciated more senior programmers (40+) joining the team. Even if their language didn't fit our stack (C++ for a JS position), my experience was extremely positive, feeling that some programmers just get better with age, no matter the language du jour. Regarding pa…
It seems to me Berlin's startup ecosystem is heavily optimized for very young people. It's awesome the immigration process is so easy, but the minimum wage requirement for IT jobs is just 38,688 EUR. Lots of companies sponsoring visas, but with wages rarely above 50k EUR, even with a relatively low cost of living, they're only attracting young singles willing to sacrifice in order to get a blue card. And from the job…
The term has probably just made it into HN (and not only) jargon :)