Is developer compensation becoming bimodal? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#191

Post by citizenkeen » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 3:04 PM UTC

bpyne wrote: post #86

alistproducer2 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at a large corp that has recently insourced all its IT. To support this they have been vacuuming up as much mediocre IT talent as they possibly could. Every once in a while they hire a person who is curious about the field and competent. For the most part, though, the majority MIS/CIS folks who couldn't hack CS or were business until a professor told them they could make a lot more money in MIS or "experienced…

What I find in in-house IT is that CS curiosity and ability to develop good software aren't the critical traits. In those environments, a "developer" spends the majority of his/her time integrating vendor solutions and writing connector code. Often they are task switching rapidly between projects, operations, and support. The critical skills belong to executive function: time planning, task switching, communications,…

Thank you for writing this. This feels like this vindicates a lot of the things I like and dislike about my current job (my first developer position, in an IT department of a very large company).

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#192

Post by wmil » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 3:04 PM UTC

gautamdivgi wrote: post #175

Bartweiss wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've held this basic theory for a while, and it seems to explain a lot of things about the state of software engineering. Most visibly, there's a wild disagreement about whether we have too many programmers, or not enough. Big tech companies consistently say that they struggle to find programmers, while contrarians at places like The Atlantic love writing pieces about how we're education way more programmers than we…

Then the point remains. Why are people who can't code getting the CS or EE degrees? Generally, the degree is supposed to indicate some sort of sufficiency with development. Probably universities are dumbing down requirements for $$$.

One problem seems to be that a lot of schools have a strong emphasis on group work. Usually there's a ton of non dev work to go along with projects - documentation, whatever paperwork the project requires, so someone can make a useful contribution without being able to code.

So a weak coder can get through the program as long as he can pass the exams.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#193

Post by brogrammernot » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 3:06 PM UTC

Bartweiss wrote: post #166

mafribe wrote: post #15

I teach computer science at a well-known, large and mediocre university. I see bimodal grade distributions all the time. The more technical a subject, the more bimodal the grades. In fluff subjects like software engineering where grading relates to essay writing and group projects, grade distribution tends to be gaussian. OTOH in technical subjects where I grade by automated test suits, basically students fail almost…

I've held this basic theory for a while, and it seems to explain a lot of things about the state of software engineering. Most visibly, there's a wild disagreement about whether we have too many programmers, or not enough. Big tech companies consistently say that they struggle to find programmers, while contrarians at places like The Atlantic love writing pieces about how we're education way more programmers than we…

I think you hit the nail on the head. There isn't really a need for a lot of companies to hire a CS degree.

Wordpress management? You can hire a Jr PHP developer and be fine. They don't teach PHP in school.

Need someone to manage your non e-commerce website? Web Developer. Again, not something they seem to teach CS majors but the title could say Web Developer or Front End Engineer

When I took a glance at the job market, most jobs didn't really need anyone who studied Boolean algebra, discrete math, how digital and analog interfaces work, big O notation etc etc

With the advent of companies like Weebly, Shopify and others you don't need to have an engineer with backend experience(which most CS teach) so you end up hiring a "developer" but the same title exists at Google and they want people who understand computer science.

So we're left with this fractured market where it's not clear from job posting to job posting what is actually wanted.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#194

Post by beachstartup » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 3:07 PM UTC

kgwgk wrote: post #51

rajeshp1986 wrote: post #26

Funny thing that I was having a discussion with one of my friend who is in the middle of salary negotiation. The company is pushing him hard to accept the offer well below than his expectations and he was expecting more hike as he was relocating to bay area. He was quite disappointed that he didn't get the salary figure he was expecting but still wanted to accept the offer as he didn't want to loose the opportunity.…

> Why are they not transparent like finance guys, lawyers, doctors etc. What makes you think that the situation in other fields is any different?

because it is. don't you know any bankers, lawyers, or doctors? discussing how much they get paid is a big part of the culture.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#195

Post by logicalmind » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 3:07 PM UTC

extremely_smart wrote: post #138

nnq wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine you've never been the one hiring or interviewing developers, have you? There is an amazing bit though: there are the ones that you classify as "surely worthless", but then you see they can indeed get some jobs done , so a non-technical manager or HR-person can easily confuse one of those that "can sometimes program computers to do useful stuff or keep things running" vs someone who can do "software engineer…

How did your category-three people drag the project down?

A sub-category I find is the "scientist" programmer vs the "engineer" programmer. With the scientist programmer being these category-three people. An engineer will use existing frameworks, technology, standards, etc. to solve a problem. And a scientist wants to develop new frameworks, technology, standards, etc. to solve a problem.

On larger teams, you want some commonality with your code. You want to be able to look at code written by others and at least have common style, strategy, and idioms. Engineering style devs tend to follow this nicely and it all works fairly well in a team dynamic. Whereas, scientist developers are often looking for new ways to do everything. When they see things done in a common and consistent way, they tend to look for unique solutions and tend to do more of "research" style development.

Don't get me wrong, both styles have their benefits. But on a typical largish development team, the scientist are often a more negatively-impacting developer to the overall productivity of the team.

The really scary thing happens when these scientist type developers become architects. And then you end up with what is often called an "architecture astronaut".

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#196

Post by bpicolo » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 3:09 PM UTC

pmorici wrote: post #59

jasode wrote: post #10

If there's a pronounced bimodal distribution, it seems like the biggest driver of it would be the lumping of various programmer specialties into one giant bucket. It seems like the 2 sub-buckets would be: 1) $100k or less: backoffice programmers where software itself is not the product sold. Also known as enterprisey/LOB/CRUD developers working outside Silicon Valley. (E.g. programmer working on mortgage servicing so…

$80k in Kansas City and $150k in San Francisco is exactly the same amount of money after accounting for differences in the cost of living. https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=$80000+salary+Kansas+C...

Bit more to it than that though yeah? 80k doesn't give you the same means to cap 401k pretax

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#197

Post by fail2fail2ban » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 3:12 PM UTC

goostavos wrote: post #183

gautamdivgi wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the point remains. Why are people who can't code getting the CS or EE degrees? Generally, the degree is supposed to indicate some sort of sufficiency with development. Probably universities are dumbing down requirements for $$$.

>Probably universities are dumbing down requirements for $$$. I 100% believe this is true. When I was in college it was pretty staggering to see my fellow classmates receive passing grades and get shoveled through the programs despite never grasping the basic fundamentals of CS. These were people who, at the end of CS 101, still couldn't tell you the difference between a string and an int, who after CS 202 _still_ co…

I'm on the job market (I do a lot of contracting so I'm perpetually so) and I've seen a slow increase in job listings that specify a degree and exclude "or equivalent experience". Decision makers need to double check what their HR people are posting or they may, emphasize may, end up with a degreed (not in Chrome's dictionary), homogeneous group of type swappers.

Perhaps ironically, don't academic types feel they are enlightened by their education? So requiring a degree for doing the same job one has done for several decades, an exclusionary act; seems to me to be at odds with their open, enlightened views.

I was contacted yesterday by a recruiter for a startup. He said, "you have over two decades of experience doing exactly what we need but our founders are graduates of and and I think they probably will require someone with a degree.".

I thanked him, I couldn't even remember applying there, I guess he just wanted to reach out and let me know how he felt.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#198

Post by solatic » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 3:12 PM UTC

charlesdm wrote: post #53

mafribe wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I don't think there is much difference in intrinsic ability. I'm absolutely convinced that every healthy person can become a really good programmer. But becoming a really good programmer requires putting in a lot of time doing programming, and a lot of students don't put in that time.

Well, if you enjoy something, it's much easier to put a lot of time in to figure it out. For example, I became a software entrepreneur about five years ago making money from my own projects. Dealing with a lot of business related "work", I actually discovered I also really like law, in particular tax law. A friend of mine was a pretty good lawyer (hung up his hat to do more entrepreneurial stuff) and I occasionally a…

It's not really surprising that good programmers are often also good at legal drafting.

When you're a programmer, you understand that the processor is dumb and has to be guided through absolutely everything. If you don't factor in the corner cases, your program is going to screw up somehow.

Legal drafting is the same thing, just replace the processor with a judge and the programming language with English. If, while writing a contract, you precisely define everything and cover all the ins and outs of what can and cannot happen and what should and should not happen in the event that any or all of the above likely or unlikely events shall happen during the lifetime of the contract. Then if you ever need to get the contract enforced by the judge, you can clearly point out exactly how the opposing party already agreed to resolve the situation in some way.

The real reason why you need to hire lawyers has more to do with making sure that the contract you draft is enforceable (considering current law and legal precedent), or else risk having the entire contract thrown out later by the judge. AKA legal system faulting.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#199

Post by akavi » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 3:15 PM UTC

asdf742 wrote: post #21

Does anybody else think the salaries are a little high? Perhaps the sample size is skewed? I'm somewhat senior in software engineering, but I literally don't know a single person making over 200k. Nada. Not one. I also don't know any college grads who started making 150k. That seems absurd, unless you're only looking at certain companies and top performers or something.

I do know two people making over 200 k$/yr in base salary as pure programmers. They're very good at their jobs (Interestingly, as far as I can tell, neither of them are "brilliant" technically, merely "good". They just combine that with incredible work efficacy and solid communication skills.)

That said, I know bunches who will make over 200 k$ in total liquid comp this year. And before you pooh-pooh the equity part, if you've been at a public company for more than a year, equity's pretty much the same as cash (albeit a slightly unpredictable quantity thereof.)

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#200

Post by markbnj » Tue, Sep 27, 2016, 3:17 PM UTC

Being a physician or attorney confers additional compensation in the form of social status and prestige which I think it's fair to say we don't get by virtue of working on code. I also think that as a general rule there is a fairly small percentage of people who like programming, and can sit in front of a computer and focus on code for hours at a time and consider that a fulfilling way to make a living. I doubt that percentage is ever going to be much higher than it is now.