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Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

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Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#51

Post by kgwgk »

rajeshp1986 wrote: post #26

Funny thing that I was having a discussion with one of my friend who is in the middle of salary negotiation. The company is pushing him hard to accept the offer well below than his expectations and he was expecting more hike as he was relocating to bay area. He was quite disappointed that he didn't get the salary figure he was expecting but still wanted to accept the offer as he didn't want to loose the opportunity.…

> Why are they not transparent like finance guys, lawyers, doctors etc.

What makes you think that the situation in other fields is any different?

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#52

Post by nnq »

deanCommie wrote: post #35
mafribe wrote: post #15

I teach computer science at a well-known, large and mediocre university. I see bimodal grade distributions all the time. The more technical a subject, the more bimodal the grades. In fluff subjects like software engineering where grading relates to essay writing and group projects, grade distribution tends to be gaussian. OTOH in technical subjects where I grade by automated test suits, basically students fail almost…

Actually doesn't your experience hint at the opposite trend in the working sector? If everyone (roughly) either fails programming, or aces it, then the working professionals are the ones who passed AND excelled.

I imagine you've never been the one hiring or interviewing developers, have you?

There is an amazing bit though: there are the ones that you classify as "surely worthless", but then you see they can indeed get some jobs done, so a non-technical manager or HR-person can easily confuse one of those that "can sometimes program computers to do useful stuff or keep things running" vs someone who can do "software engineering".

Oh, and then there's the infuriating third category of those extreeemly smart (IQ through the roof + wealth of knowledge) but extreeeemly unproductive (like even manifesting "negative productivity" and dragging a team down or an entire project into the ground, the "-10x programmer").

People are... complex :)

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#53

Post by charlesdm »

mafribe wrote: post #47
stdbrouw wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the conclusion follows from the data. It's not implausible that in computer science you need to "get" a whole bunch of things before it clicks and you start being productive, and a bimodal distribution of grades would then be indicative only of people who are further along in the learning process vs. those that have not yet reached that critical point, rather than any huge difference in intrinsic abilit…

I agree, I don't think there is much difference in intrinsic ability. I'm absolutely convinced that every healthy person can become a really good programmer. But becoming a really good programmer requires putting in a lot of time doing programming, and a lot of students don't put in that time.

Well, if you enjoy something, it's much easier to put a lot of time in to figure it out.

For example, I became a software entrepreneur about five years ago making money from my own projects. Dealing with a lot of business related "work", I actually discovered I also really like law, in particular tax law.

A friend of mine was a pretty good lawyer (hung up his hat to do more entrepreneurial stuff) and I occasionally ask him to look over contracts I've drafted. He said some of the contracts I put together are better than what some of his colleagues put together. I've also defended myself in a few tax disputes with legal arguments, and always won. If I knew more about it before, I think I would've genuinely enjoyed being a lawyer.

If you enjoy something, it's not that hard to become really good at something. If you don't, it is extremely hard to become better than the guy who loves what he does.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#54

Post by Retric »

mafribe wrote: post #47
stdbrouw wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the conclusion follows from the data. It's not implausible that in computer science you need to "get" a whole bunch of things before it clicks and you start being productive, and a bimodal distribution of grades would then be indicative only of people who are further along in the learning process vs. those that have not yet reached that critical point, rather than any huge difference in intrinsic abilit…

I agree, I don't think there is much difference in intrinsic ability. I'm absolutely convinced that every healthy person can become a really good programmer. But becoming a really good programmer requires putting in a lot of time doing programming, and a lot of students don't put in that time.

It's really not about time, it's being able to think flexibly. I have seen several freshman who never coded before where 1/3 of them get it in a few weeks and have an easy 4 years, where the second set either drops out or spends a lot of time trying to keep up.

An assembler class where the high end spent 2-3 hours and come in with 3-5 pages of code vs. the low end that spent 50x as long had 100+ pages of code that did not quite work. At first glance the difference was if you looked up how the math coprocessor worked, but more generally how much you tried to brute force the problem vs. look for a cleaner solution.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#55

Post by Amezarak »

jasode wrote: post #10

If there's a pronounced bimodal distribution, it seems like the biggest driver of it would be the lumping of various programmer specialties into one giant bucket. It seems like the 2 sub-buckets would be: 1) $100k or less: backoffice programmers where software itself is not the product sold. Also known as enterprisey/LOB/CRUD developers working outside Silicon Valley. (E.g. programmer working on mortgage servicing so…

I really think it's location, location, location, not necessarily whether or not the software is the product.

I've worked for consulting companies, product companies, and right now I work for a sort-of back-office organization. The best I've been able to do, despite several years of experience, good references, inside connections, a graduate degree, and being pretty (I think, anyway) personable is...75k. And I don't know anyone doing much better unless they moved to SV or NYC.

My long-term plan is to see if somehow I can find the time to find a side-project or contribute to something open source, so my ability is out there and highly visible to anyone considering me, but that is going to be very difficult for where I am now. I'd love to make low six figures, it seems difficult to believe even in SV there are new grads making 150k, and it's frustrating to me because I know I perform at the level of people making that much money.

EDIT: In case anyone was curious, new grads hired for development in my area of the US get paid from about 35-45k.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#56

Post by morgante »

stdbrouw wrote: post #44
mafribe wrote: post #15

I teach computer science at a well-known, large and mediocre university. I see bimodal grade distributions all the time. The more technical a subject, the more bimodal the grades. In fluff subjects like software engineering where grading relates to essay writing and group projects, grade distribution tends to be gaussian. OTOH in technical subjects where I grade by automated test suits, basically students fail almost…

I don't think the conclusion follows from the data. It's not implausible that in computer science you need to "get" a whole bunch of things before it clicks and you start being productive, and a bimodal distribution of grades would then be indicative only of people who are further along in the learning process vs. those that have not yet reached that critical point, rather than any huge difference in intrinsic abilit…

It also requires the right kinds of insights.

I know plenty of people who somehow manage to make it all the way through an undergrad degree without ever really getting programming. They then managed to get a low-skill job at a low-caliber employer, where they produce bad code, poorly. But because even bad employers need code these days, they manage to maintain a job in programming despite never really understanding it on a fundamental level. Unfortunately, in such an environment it can be hard to ever improve since you rarely have competent coworkers (and the ones you do have quickly leave).

It might just be a matter of time, but only if you frame it that some people get it really quickly and others take forever. Ultimately, I think programming performance correlates very highly with IQ. Otherwise I really don't see any coherent explanation for why I should be able to out-program someone who started programming before I was born.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#57

Post by dsfyu404ed »

syllogism wrote: post #23

Developer compensation is high because developers produce more valuable work, and in the short term the labor market isn't that efficient. People don't make very efficient initial choices of career, and their initial choices are fairly sticky. In the middle of a gold rush, how does it happen that people change their plans, and go out and mine the gold, sell the pick-axes etc? Dropping your plans generally sucks. All…

It's say it's the "smart but not intelligent" kids that are vulnerable to that. The "smart kids" ride the wave to get their foot in the door and pivot into something more stable.

Being the local subject matter expert on a relevant topic or straddling the management/technical line goes a long way. Look at what happened in the defense industry in the 1990s and tech in the 2000s.

Being able to code well and having domain specific knowledge is more valuable than just being able to be a rock-star. When times get tight companies shed weight (people) and carrying around a splitting maul is a better deal than a sledge and wedge because it even if it's a little less powerful overall.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#58

Post by henrik_w »

charlesdm wrote: post #53
mafribe wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I don't think there is much difference in intrinsic ability. I'm absolutely convinced that every healthy person can become a really good programmer. But becoming a really good programmer requires putting in a lot of time doing programming, and a lot of students don't put in that time.

Well, if you enjoy something, it's much easier to put a lot of time in to figure it out. For example, I became a software entrepreneur about five years ago making money from my own projects. Dealing with a lot of business related "work", I actually discovered I also really like law, in particular tax law. A friend of mine was a pretty good lawyer (hung up his hat to do more entrepreneurial stuff) and I occasionally a…

I think the question of whether anybody can get good at programming is very interesting. I often hear "anybody can do it, but you can only become really good if you enjoy it".

So then the question is: why do you enjoy something? Are we born that way, or is it something we do? (I don't know what the answer is)

Edit: also, it is interesting to replace "programmer" with "math professor". Can anybody become a good math professor if they enjoy doing it? If not, what is the difference (assuming it is true for programmers).

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#59

Post by pmorici »

jasode wrote: post #10

If there's a pronounced bimodal distribution, it seems like the biggest driver of it would be the lumping of various programmer specialties into one giant bucket. It seems like the 2 sub-buckets would be: 1) $100k or less: backoffice programmers where software itself is not the product sold. Also known as enterprisey/LOB/CRUD developers working outside Silicon Valley. (E.g. programmer working on mortgage servicing so…

$80k in Kansas City and $150k in San Francisco is exactly the same amount of money after accounting for differences in the cost of living.

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=$80000+salary+Kansas+C...

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#60

Post by NoGravitas »

Amezarak wrote: post #55
jasode wrote: post #10

If there's a pronounced bimodal distribution, it seems like the biggest driver of it would be the lumping of various programmer specialties into one giant bucket. It seems like the 2 sub-buckets would be: 1) $100k or less: backoffice programmers where software itself is not the product sold. Also known as enterprisey/LOB/CRUD developers working outside Silicon Valley. (E.g. programmer working on mortgage servicing so…

I really think it's location, location, location, not necessarily whether or not the software is the product. I've worked for consulting companies, product companies, and right now I work for a sort-of back-office organization. The best I've been able to do, despite several years of experience, good references, inside connections, a graduate degree, and being pretty (I think, anyway) personable is...75k. And I don't…

Your experience is consistent with mine.
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