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Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

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Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#11

Post by rmk2 »

dkopi wrote: post #3

The most important thing to remember about developer compensation, especially when comparing to more "traditional" roles, is scale. A programmer working at a large internet company may be impacting millions upon millions of people. Building a feature that lets you collect (or save) a penny from a user every month is worth $240K a year when spread out over 2 million users. $120M when spread out over 1 billion users. T…

A roadworker should be paid amazing rates, then, because millions of people will end up using that road.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#12

Post by wodenokoto »

jasode wrote: post #10

If there's a pronounced bimodal distribution, it seems like the biggest driver of it would be the lumping of various programmer specialties into one giant bucket. It seems like the 2 sub-buckets would be: 1) $100k or less: backoffice programmers where software itself is not the product sold. Also known as enterprisey/LOB/CRUD developers working outside Silicon Valley. (E.g. programmer working on mortgage servicing so…

Can't you arguably make similar groupings within lawyers?

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#13

Post by dismantlethesun »

work4beer wrote: post #5

How about tri-modal, or even quad. Problem with coding is that there are 1st,2nd,3rd, and 4th level programmers. 1st level A star guys/gals from big-name cs school like CMU, ... having been pulling in good money since the 1960's upon grad, 2nd tier engineers are the self-trained guys who get lucky, and secure an engineer job after a few years working, they usually don't have degrees and nearly always face a glass-sea…

> Then there is the issue that after 40 you can't get hired unless your connected,

Well that's not been my experience on the east coast. Most developers are over 35 in certain companies: finance, defence, high-status non-profits.

Sure, there's a clusters of 20 year olds without degrees slaving away in the same vertical, but they're not in the same companies.

I think for a young person, its harder to get a job unless you have a 'hot' skill because hot skills are typically in new strategies and technologies where the hiring pool is shallow.

For an older person, your experience means that you can get a job in even a 'dead' skill. Some people work using Java 1.2, some people work using Django/Rails instead of SPA Javascript. Some people get hired solely for their ability to write competent Fortran.

I don't think you need to be well connected to have these jobs. Most of those I know who got hired into them it was due to a recruiter, and not a personal invite.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#14

Post by crispyambulance »

dkopi wrote: post #3

The most important thing to remember about developer compensation, especially when comparing to more "traditional" roles, is scale. A programmer working at a large internet company may be impacting millions upon millions of people. Building a feature that lets you collect (or save) a penny from a user every month is worth $240K a year when spread out over 2 million users. $120M when spread out over 1 billion users. T…

Scale is not the most important factor. It really is about supply and demand. If employers could get away with paying their developers 30K a year, they would (... and they do whenever possible).

The actual scale of the work certainly informs the compensation, like it might for other jobs like journalists for example, but that is only part of the story. If you need developers, you simply gotta pay them salaries the are competitive with what others pay for that particular role.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#15

Post by mafribe »

I teach computer science at a well-known, large and mediocre university.

I see bimodal grade distributions all the time. The more technical a subject, the more bimodal the grades.

In fluff subjects like software engineering where grading relates to essay writing and group projects, grade distribution tends to be gaussian. OTOH in technical subjects where I grade by automated test suits, basically students fail almost all tests or pass almost all tests.

These grade distributions have been constant, regardless of university, regardless of who teaches the course.

There really is a sharp threshold that separates those who get programming from those who don't. And those who get programming really are a lot more productive than those who don't get it. Moreover, once you get it, learning further parts of CS (e.g. new algorithms, new programming languages, new OSes etc) is much easier then if you don't get it, and learning new things makes you even more powerful. The mastery of doing great things is joyful and makes you want to learn more. The frustration of failure drives you away from the subject.

I find it plausible that grade distributions turn into similar income distributions later in life.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#16

Post by Fiahil »

work4beer wrote: post #5

How about tri-modal, or even quad. Problem with coding is that there are 1st,2nd,3rd, and 4th level programmers. 1st level A star guys/gals from big-name cs school like CMU, ... having been pulling in good money since the 1960's upon grad, 2nd tier engineers are the self-trained guys who get lucky, and secure an engineer job after a few years working, they usually don't have degrees and nearly always face a glass-sea…

> Problem with coding is that there are 1st,2nd,3rd, and 4th level programmers.

I'm a star-guy-from-big-name-cs-school, and I'm developing complex systems from scratch. However, few people from my promotion are actually doing that, most of them will work on mobile/front-end or small webservices in a random B2C startup (something that will fall into the hacking category?).

Your school and your degree will only matter for your first and maybe your second job. After that, experience is more appreciated.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#17

Post by dkopi »

rmk2 wrote: post #11
dkopi wrote: post #3

The most important thing to remember about developer compensation, especially when comparing to more "traditional" roles, is scale. A programmer working at a large internet company may be impacting millions upon millions of people. Building a feature that lets you collect (or save) a penny from a user every month is worth $240K a year when spread out over 2 million users. $120M when spread out over 1 billion users. T…

A roadworker should be paid amazing rates, then, because millions of people will end up using that road.

Valid point, but most roads aren't profitable. They're subsidized by tax payers.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#18

Post by work4beer »

a98327zu9821 wrote: post #9
work4beer wrote: post #5

How about tri-modal, or even quad. Problem with coding is that there are 1st,2nd,3rd, and 4th level programmers. 1st level A star guys/gals from big-name cs school like CMU, ... having been pulling in good money since the 1960's upon grad, 2nd tier engineers are the self-trained guys who get lucky, and secure an engineer job after a few years working, they usually don't have degrees and nearly always face a glass-sea…

According to your classification I'm tier 2, yet I have built several large systems while many degree holders cannot. The most amusing aspect is that some degree holders refuse to use formal methods, because they think they don't need them.

Well let's see Bill Gates was a drop-out, so was Edison, .. I think the majority of famous rich men were drop-outs,

What a degree or an A student usually means is that you are a kiss ass, not usually a good indication of someone who is a hard worker, and sees the problem and sticks with the problem until resolved.

Most educated elite don't work, they're spoiled, they ended up in grad school to defer working cuz ma&pa are rich,

Yes, PHDS at google.com can make $200k, but that doesn't mean that every PHD can make $200k at google,

In summary at google/microsoft/oracle, ... its not what you know, or what your degree says, its who you blow

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#19

Post by ghaff »

wodenokoto wrote: post #12
jasode wrote: post #10

If there's a pronounced bimodal distribution, it seems like the biggest driver of it would be the lumping of various programmer specialties into one giant bucket. It seems like the 2 sub-buckets would be: 1) $100k or less: backoffice programmers where software itself is not the product sold. Also known as enterprisey/LOB/CRUD developers working outside Silicon Valley. (E.g. programmer working on mortgage servicing so…

Can't you arguably make similar groupings within lawyers?

I suspect even more so. Top school, law review, good federal clerkship, white shoe New York firm and everyone else.

(Of course, that's a gross oversimplification. There are lots of lawyers with, e.g. solid in-house corporate counsel jobs. But the overall "commodity" market for lawyers isn't great these days.)

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#20

Post by warfangle »

ghaff wrote: post #19
wodenokoto wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you arguably make similar groupings within lawyers?

I suspect even more so. Top school, law review, good federal clerkship, white shoe New York firm and everyone else. (Of course, that's a gross oversimplification. There are lots of lawyers with, e.g. solid in-house corporate counsel jobs. But the overall "commodity" market for lawyers isn't great these days.)

And there are many lawyers who work on social issues like tenant advocacy that make a whooole lot less than, say, an M&A lawyer.
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