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Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

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Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#231

Post by jernfrost »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #217
jernfrost wrote: post #190

This is beginning in the wrong end IMHO. One of the big problems today is that products are: 1) Not made to be repaired. 2) Not made to last 3) Repair manuals are not easily and widely available 4) Manufacturer have monopoly on replacement parts making them extremely expensive. I would instead create tax incentives which encourage manufacturers to make repairable and durable items, and pass laws which makes it easier…

>> Getting the part is difficult, expensive or hard to install. I'm running into this with some of my drones now. The 3DR Iris Plus was released in 2014 and they've already ceased supporting it, less than two years after releasing it. This means no more OEM parts available and whatever is out there right now, is out there. I have found only one distributor who carries parts for this model - so I'm left with either be…

Yeah I think the key to this repair economy is cheap and easy to use 3D printers. They will allow us to make so many needed parts on demand as needed. Alternatively if 3D printing stores were more easily available and the 3D models for all sorts of plastic parts was easily available you could go to a 3D store and have the part printed.

In short I think we need to think a bit more about how to organize things than exclusively thinking about taxes.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#232

Post by TDL »

specialist wrote: post #142
J-dawg wrote: post #6

This idea seems so sensible it's a no-brainer. (I'm almost dreading the comments explaining why I'm wrong!) The human race is producing unprecedented quantities of non-recyclable "stuff". It's pumped out of the ground as oil, converted into plastics, and after a short life, buried in the ground again. Maybe this wouldn't be so bad if much of it didn't also end up floating in the ocean, being eaten by animals and cont…

I'm not so sure. We must consider the whole lifecycle. My buddy, with genuine compassion, recycles used PCs and gifts them to communities in the third world. I've read some pretty strong arguments that it'd better for everyone if they simply received the newest, cheapest PCs. Sweden's efforts could help (symbolically) by influencing the design of future goods, to be more serviceable, upgradeable.

Not sure what service your friend uses for gifting his electronics to African countries, but I believe most electronics are sent to Ghana then burned for various metals.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/ghana804/

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#233

Post by nugator »

sliverstorm wrote: post #199
jernfrost wrote: post #190

This is beginning in the wrong end IMHO. One of the big problems today is that products are: 1) Not made to be repaired. 2) Not made to last 3) Repair manuals are not easily and widely available 4) Manufacturer have monopoly on replacement parts making them extremely expensive. I would instead create tax incentives which encourage manufacturers to make repairable and durable items, and pass laws which makes it easier…

There's another angle too. For a long time the only tailor in town was basically a bridal tailor. They charged steep prices for simple work on everyday clothing, and wait times were long. Fast forward to today. I had ripped holes in a few pairs of pants, and was wondering if it made sense to have them repaired- I was pretty sure I was going to be charged as much as the pants were worth for a fairly simple repair. Luc…

Nudie Jeans company in Sweden offer free repairs on their jeans. So that's another way to go. (I'm not affiliated with them)

https://www.nudiejeans.com/page/this-is-nudie-jeans

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#234

Post by JsGarage »

maxerickson wrote: post #137
brightball wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything, it seems like this might be a reasonably untapped area for innovation: making repairs more efficient. Right now all of the business and efficiency gains seem to be invested in lowering production cost, selling fast and hard to gain market share. It seems like a way to make repairs more efficient could be a solid way of attacking a market slowly with a quality product. Slower growth but you build a brand…

My school offered a semester course titled "Design for Manufacturability". We looked at things like lowering fastener and part count, to reduce assembly time (and assembly errors, etc.). It was taught by a part time guy who had a lot of experience with it in industry. I may have missed it, but I don't think there was a similar "Design for Service" course. It's not been entirely ignored, there are makes of cars that m…

I'm up against the car issue in a big way. I wanted to change a clutch in my 06 scion xb I'd need to suspend the engine and trans separately to get at the clutch in the middle. That's 2 big lumps of steel hanging over my head while I wrench.. I can't pull the assessmbly out the top because it doesn't fit through the opening! And it's only by a few inches!

In my 1973 240z I can practically stand in the enginebay with the engine in place and if I want to pull the motor and trans it's a job a single person could do if they had practice.

It's weird

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#235

Post by nothrabannosir »

jernfrost wrote: post #228
lallysingh wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this better? Manufacturers can make rational decisions on tax breaks vs additional costs. Here, they have to compete with a "easily repairable!" label from a competing product. That's hard to price.

If that was an advantage when selling, they would already have done it.

The tax break for consumers makes it more advantageous.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#236

Post by ryandrake »

floatrock wrote: post #221
ryandrake wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't have a top of the range, almost new fridge or TV, even phone, repair will almost always come close to replacement cost. I tend to repair everything, and let me say that's not true for the vast majority of my possessions, including cars, appliances, electronics, etc. It highly depends on the nature of the failure, but generally parts are cheaper than replacement. Here are a list of things I've recently…

For something like the AV receiver's three capacitors or the TV's convergence IC's, how did you track down the problem and source replacements? Are there debugging manuals for that level of electronics failure, or was it just "hmmm, that capacitor probably shouldn't have all the goo around it"?

Forums + Youtube + Digikey for most electronics repair. The ICs were a little specialty, I think I got them on eBay. For most anything once you get a hold of the part number, you're good to go.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#237

Post by protomok »

floatrock wrote: post #221
ryandrake wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't have a top of the range, almost new fridge or TV, even phone, repair will almost always come close to replacement cost. I tend to repair everything, and let me say that's not true for the vast majority of my possessions, including cars, appliances, electronics, etc. It highly depends on the nature of the failure, but generally parts are cheaper than replacement. Here are a list of things I've recently…

For something like the AV receiver's three capacitors or the TV's convergence IC's, how did you track down the problem and source replacements? Are there debugging manuals for that level of electronics failure, or was it just "hmmm, that capacitor probably shouldn't have all the goo around it"?

My approach as a learn-it-as-I-go-DIYer is basically:

1) Google part number and the symptoms, half the time somebody has blogged about the exact same issue. These consumer products often fail in the same way.

2) Google symptoms and look for issues with similar products. Faulty capacitors for example is a classic cause of problems for older electronics and can be observed by just looking at the PCB (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague)

3) Debug using Service Manual (note the User Manuals are typically useless / not detailed enough). Again just googling your part number will typically get you a PDF. If you still can't find the Service Manual you can buy it at these sketchy sites online for $10US, or buy the manual from the OEM (typically closer to $50US from my experience).

4) If still not sure what's wrong, buy a new logic board

5) Buy new gadget

Warning - depending on which appliance is broken irritation level of spouse may grow exponentially!

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#239

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

jernfrost wrote: post #230
sliverstorm wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's another angle too. For a long time the only tailor in town was basically a bridal tailor. They charged steep prices for simple work on everyday clothing, and wait times were long. Fast forward to today. I had ripped holes in a few pairs of pants, and was wondering if it made sense to have them repaired- I was pretty sure I was going to be charged as much as the pants were worth for a fairly simple repair. Luc…

Repair services in any western country will be hideously expensive because it can't be automated and has to be paid western wages, while the products themselves are made in an automated fashion with third world wages. For this repair stuff to work, we have to make it easier to do so that people can do it themselves.

It does depend on the product.

I have a KitchenAid blender and a KitchenAid stand mixer that I've had to repair. In both cases, the part was purchased for under $10 online and repair only took a few minutes. The alternative was buying a new $300 or $100+ product.

Sure, I did the repair myself, but a local KitchenAid service center (yes, they exist!) would probably have done the job even faster.

It boils down to cost/benefit. Would I have done the same thing with a $30 mixer? Not worth it; simpler to buy a replacement, but in this case, the products are built to last (both broken parts were "sacrificial" and designed to fail before something more expensive failed).

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#240

Post by r00fus »

jernfrost wrote: post #230
sliverstorm wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's another angle too. For a long time the only tailor in town was basically a bridal tailor. They charged steep prices for simple work on everyday clothing, and wait times were long. Fast forward to today. I had ripped holes in a few pairs of pants, and was wondering if it made sense to have them repaired- I was pretty sure I was going to be charged as much as the pants were worth for a fairly simple repair. Luc…

Repair services in any western country will be hideously expensive because it can't be automated and has to be paid western wages, while the products themselves are made in an automated fashion with third world wages. For this repair stuff to work, we have to make it easier to do so that people can do it themselves.

Well there is the desire for the consumer to keep an item they know works (ie, a good-fitting pair of jeans or shoes).

I think the incentives here will simply make that edge-case more viable.

In order to make a sea-change, Sweden and other countries will have to go to war against mass-market manufacturers.

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