Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#191

Post by logfromblammo » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 4:04 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #143

barnacs wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I did some math on that too but it's a bit more complicated than that. First of all, I don't trust a new fridge these days to last 10 years but I can easily see this one purring for another 20 with minor repairs. Secondly, this is a combo fridge+freezer unit, with 2 compressors. New ones only seem to have one compressor, which makes them somewhat more efficient but if it dies, both my freezer and fridge die with…

Perhaps.. but lets say in 10 years efficiency goes up another 30%. So yes even if your current fridge COULD last 20 more years, with efficiency gains the best thing for the environment COULD be to melt it down for scrap and get a newer model. To me this is the really interesting part in all of this. If there was no efficiency gains generation to generation.. say a piece of clothing.. seems pretty obvious to make slig…

The problem is that the insulated cabinet portion of the fridge could easily last 100 years, just by replacing the door seals every now and then. Why would you want to throw that out with the parts that should be upgraded every 10 years for energy efficiency reasons?

Those old cars could be made as efficient as new ones by replacing every part in them other than the chassis. That's prohibitively expensive now, but mostly because there's no standard for engine compartment size and mount point locations. If I could order a "Type 2A" replacement engine instead of a "year T brand X model Y" replacement engine--or even get a 5-years-used-and-refurbished "Type 2A" engine from someone upgrading their "2011 Brand M Model N" commuter sedan, and put it in my "2001 Brand X Model Y" commuter sedan--that would solve a lot of the vehicle obsolescence problems. Moving mechanical parts wear out a lot faster than fixed structural parts. Why throw them all out at the same time?

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#192

Post by jernfrost » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 4:05 PM UTC

keeganjw wrote: post #103

legulere wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also lots of things wrong in Scandinavia. There's segregation between the "native" population and the immigrants/their descendants. Suspects for crime, including children are put into isolation by default. Strict drug laws, strict alcohol laws that lead to binge drinking instead of a normal enjoyment of beer/wine. A strong sense that they're the best in the world which they often actively carry outwards. Stil…

This reminds me of my time in Stockholm. I was there for a few months and saw quite a few homeless people. I don't remember a single one of them being a white "native" Swede. They all appeared to be immigrants. Swedes might brag about their good social welfare (and it's great if you can get it) but it doesn't seem to be applied evenly.

God how I hate the reputation these people give us. They are Roma people from Romania. We are drowning in them in Norway as well. We pay Romania a shitload to help them, but all the money disappears in corruption so Roma people actually find life easier begging for scraps in Scandinavia than living in the country where they have citizenship and their government is supposed to take care of them with Scandinavian money.

We can't just shelling out money and benefits to people who have no legal status in our countries. Then millions would pour in.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#193

Post by kuschku » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 4:07 PM UTC

hlandau wrote: post #151

kuschku wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buy MIELE, those survive for decades.

Probably the least worst option unless you want to buy (very expensive) commercial/industrial models. The main downside to Miele that I'm aware of is that unlike other manufacturers they monopolise repairs, i.e. only Miele repairmen can repair Miele machines, AFAIK. Also while Miele machines are better built they still use short warranties. Here Miele claims to test their machines to 20 years equivalent use: http://w…

Actually, in Germany all better models come with 10 year warranties, and they allow most people to repair them.

(We got a Miele washing machine in 2006, and after good experiences with that, we also switched our dishwasher in 2009 to Miele)

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#194

Post by nickpsecurity » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 4:15 PM UTC

mtbcoder wrote: post #88

sheraz wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see why you and many others living outside of the region would think that. Sweden is very good at only extolling her perceived "virtues" and sweeping the rest under the rug. Waaaay under the rug. There is a real moral and intellectual superiority among many Swedes that I find deeply distasteful. From environment to politics to how to bag your groceries, and yes--even close a door properly, the "Swedish way" is alwa…

From my US perspective, I don't think anyone here believes that Sweden (or any other Scandinavian country for that matter) is some kind of wondrous utopia of social democracy without its own problems. What is going on is more of a growing sense of despair and frustration as we see other Western countries moving forward with social progress as we remain stuck in the 20th century, unable to figure out even the basics.…

I'm with you. I see all kinds of progress and basic needs met in these other democracies. In the U.S., the situation is brutal for a lot of people with most political activity intentionally ignoring every real problem and solution we have to focus on side issues or outright superficial ones. That the corporate media makes money on the status quo and shapes its presentation accordingly means activists might never be able to get the solutions to enough people. I've pretty much given up on getting America in shape. Evaluating alternatives where their people at least try on a regular basis.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#195

Post by nickpsecurity » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 4:17 PM UTC

berntb wrote: post #13

jokoon wrote: post #4

I fail to understand why Scandinavian politics always manage to make sense. Is that cultural, historical, economical, or does the tough climate force people to think a little bit more about how they manage their society?

You are just too far away. Swedish politics is as sick a joke as in Italy. - The school and high school results are in a state of implosion. No real political reaction. - Because of internal political manoeuvres, the immigration policies were done so it will cost multiple times of the defence spending the coming years -- and risk a Spanish style housing crash. - Putin acts more or less like Hitler in the mid 1930s. T…

" Putin acts" Are you describing Russia or Sweden?

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#196

Post by Karunamon » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 4:18 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #189

dclowd9901 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, they do. I believe at least electronics companies pay a small fee for every device to pay for its disposal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Waste_Recycling_Fee

That's a pretty blunt instrument though. It looks like it just hits retailers, not manufacturers, and the fee is assessed regardless of whether the device ends up disposed. Seems like such a fee would serve only to make everything more expensive, instead of actually incentivizing the production of longer-lasting goods. Another idea (probably full of holes, I'm sure): Tax manufacturers based on the length of their pro…

Biggest problem I can think of there can be answered with most of the warranty repairs I've ever had done.

"We don't have any parts for your $old_thing, here, have a $new_thing"

Great from the consumer standpoint, but useless when it comes to reducing the amount of trash. And I'd be willing to bet that once something doesn't have any parts, it's not gonna be refurbished, it's gonna be scavenged for useful parts (if that's even possible), if not outright destroyed.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#197

Post by semi-extrinsic » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 4:21 PM UTC

pingec wrote: post #97

pyvpx wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

are they, though? I have an older (less than 10 year old) Panasonic washing machine and if the ratings of newer machines are to be believed, when comparing with the dedicated water meter I have connected to the current one, a new one might pay for itself in water savings in about 4 years. I'm just not sure I believe the newer models ratings. mine is much more efficient in water use on paper than what the water meter…

It depends how expensive water is for you. I would not trust the ratings at all though. Funny story about new "more efficient" machines... a neighbor bought a new BEKO machine (before that she had a CANDY I think). She says the new machine uses so little water you cannot even see the actual water inside. All you see is soaked clothes. She says that the results are worse compared to the old CANDY and that the clothes…

> Due to EU regulations there is no more "add extra water" feature like in older machines

Not sure I buy this, I just bought a new Miele (to replace the broken Bosch) that has a dedicated "Water Plus" button.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#198

Post by digikata » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 4:22 PM UTC

Roboprog wrote: post #175

ryandrake wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't have a top of the range, almost new fridge or TV, even phone, repair will almost always come close to replacement cost. I tend to repair everything, and let me say that's not true for the vast majority of my possessions, including cars, appliances, electronics, etc. It highly depends on the nature of the failure, but generally parts are cheaper than replacement. Here are a list of things I've recently…

I suspect I will do much more of that after I retire. It's hard to motivate myself to spend much time on most such activities now. Now saying you don't have a point, just how the day flows sometimes.

I find that repairing it myself is often faster than getting a tech out to repair things. It seems to be a minimum of two appointments, one to diagnose things and order the part, another to come back to fix it. With the wait windows the repair services want, it's less time to do it myself.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#199

Post by sliverstorm » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 4:22 PM UTC

jernfrost wrote: post #190

This is beginning in the wrong end IMHO. One of the big problems today is that products are: 1) Not made to be repaired. 2) Not made to last 3) Repair manuals are not easily and widely available 4) Manufacturer have monopoly on replacement parts making them extremely expensive. I would instead create tax incentives which encourage manufacturers to make repairable and durable items, and pass laws which makes it easier…

There's another angle too. For a long time the only tailor in town was basically a bridal tailor. They charged steep prices for simple work on everyday clothing, and wait times were long.

Fast forward to today. I had ripped holes in a few pairs of pants, and was wondering if it made sense to have them repaired- I was pretty sure I was going to be charged as much as the pants were worth for a fairly simple repair. Luckily there's a new shop in town, run by a group of older ladies who seem to have grown up tailoring, that charges sane prices.

Anyway, the point is repairing can be uneconomical simply because of lack of availability of repair resources.

As an example on the other side, Autozone has enabled countless mechanics with their tool library programs and other basic shadetree services like easy oil recycling.

(P.S. Maybe I should learn to sew & get an inexpensive sewing machine, but that isn't the point)

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#200

Post by lallysingh » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 4:23 PM UTC

jernfrost wrote: post #190

This is beginning in the wrong end IMHO. One of the big problems today is that products are: 1) Not made to be repaired. 2) Not made to last 3) Repair manuals are not easily and widely available 4) Manufacturer have monopoly on replacement parts making them extremely expensive. I would instead create tax incentives which encourage manufacturers to make repairable and durable items, and pass laws which makes it easier…

Isn't this better? Manufacturers can make rational decisions on tax breaks vs additional costs. Here, they have to compete with a "easily repairable!" label from a competing product. That's hard to price.